REALLY good artwork.

[Toontoonz]

I just find it lots of work & the files still have lots of points - so obviously I must be doing something wrong.

Animation is always a lot of work, so what is your point? If I seem blunt here: it was non-intentional.

I am not talking about animation being a lot of work, I am talking about jahnocli and his method of bringing Expression drawings into Moho.

The point is, if you do how jahnocli says - draw in Expression>Flash>Moho it is lots of work to optimize each curve. Sure, if you have one single black line (as he drew), one can easily optimize the line in Flash, but if you bring in a detailed drawing into Flash from Expression that uses complicated brushes, brushes that overlap, one has to go curve by curve by curve to optimize it. There can be hundreds and hundreds of curves that have to be optimized in Flash.
This is too much work, this is a waste of time.
I am saying that although jahnocli got it to work using a simple line (I still don´t know how many points are in his drawing) it is not worthwhile or possible to use his described technique on a detailed drawing created in Expression.
Such as illustrations like this:


I invite anyone to show me how it is just "click, click" and the number of points are reduced in an Expression drawing from 10,000 or 50,000 to 500 or fewer while still maintaining the drawing´s look. That would be great.

And if one is just going to draw a solid line around a character - why go to another program when you can probably do it in Moho? And do it a lot faster and you don´t have to learn or buy two or more other programs?

[Toontoonz]

There are about a thousand points in the drawing.
J

Thousands of points.

Try animating that. (And all you have is the head...add a body, some arms, legs...other characters...)

People - do not rush out and try to learn Expression and buy Flash ($499) thinking you can import vector Expression drawings that can be used in Moho.

----------

Added: I created a black brush in Moho similar to yours and drew over your drawing, see below. Total number of points using the Moho brush: 115.

[Venkman]

Wow.... While this it all very fascinating, I understand maybe 40% of it.

I'm not about to go buy Flash for 500.00, I just can't afford it.

i think I'm starting to understand that BRUSHES has a LOT to do with it. How do I make my own brushes and import it into moho? Will this also require another expensive program or can I do it with what I have? I'm on Mac OS X btw.

Also.... I'm creating this RObot character.... I have his Head, Neck, Torso and Left Arm so far.... for practice I applied bones to his Arm.... When I move his forearm in a 90 degree angle with the bicep, it gets REALLY distorted.... like the bicep becomes skinnier and ends at a sharp point where its connected with the forearm.

Now I set the Bone for REGION instead of FLEXIBLE... and the bone strengths are minimized down to covering just the region i want them to move.... but the forearm movement still distorts the bicep in an ugly looking way.

Any suggestions?

i can post my Moho file of my robot if you'd like.

EDIT: OOPS.... The file i posted had no bones.... here is the RObot with bones in the one arm I'm having problems with...

http://s44.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=3EQ1 ... Q7PC9PSCQC

[jahnocli]

Added: I created a black brush in Moho similar to yours and drew over your drawing, see below. Total number of points using the Moho brush: 115

I am humbled.

J

[Toontoonz]

Regarding making brushes in Moho, read Tutorial 2.5.
You can make brushes in Moho.
See forum:
http://www.lostmarble.com/forum/viewtop ... 7&start=45
and see the fun animations Rasheed made out of brushes he created.

[Rasheed]

Also.... I'm creating this RObot character.... I have his Head, Neck, Torso and Left Arm so far.... for practice I applied bones to his Arm.... When I move his forearm in a 90 degree angle with the bicep, it gets REALLY distorted.... like the bicep becomes skinnier and ends at a sharp point where its connected with the forearm.

Now I set the Bone for REGION instead of FLEXIBLE... and the bone strengths are minimized down to covering just the region i want them to move.... but the forearm movement still distorts the bicep in an ugly looking way.

Any suggestions?

You mean something like this:

(zipped Moho source here)

Recipe: Put enough space between each of the three parts of the arm (upper-, lowerarm and hand), and also the rest of the robot (so there are no overlapping points as the part turns due to bone actions). The upperarm gets a bone, the elbow and lowerarm get a bone and the hand gets a bone. Put the base of the bone on the center of the turning circle of the joint and make the bone no longer than the length of the part. Adjust bone strength, so it covers the entire part. Now put them together with the Offset Bones tool.

See also Moho Tutorial 3.4

[Rasheed]

The point is, if you do how jahnocli says - draw in Expression>Flash>Moho it is lots of work to optimize each curve.

And if one is just going to draw a solid line around a character - why go to another program when you can probably do it in Moho? And do it a lot faster and you don´t have to learn or buy two or more other programs?

Well, sometimes it's easier to draw something in Expression (or another drawing program), export it as bitmap and use that to create a shape in Moho.

For instance, I drew this tap in The Gimp (pixel paint program for several OS'es):

Used it as a tracing image in Moho (view -> select tracing image) to create this animation:


Sure, I could have done all of this in Moho, but I found the detour with The Gimp much easier.

[Toontoonz]

Rasheed, my whole point about brushes and such is that:
A) for a simple solid line - Moho is okay to use (if one likes the awkward way one must draw with Moho). And keeping in mind that the brushes are not really vectors, but images packed along a line.
B) for vector art (not a solid line), such as this vector art:

one cannot create it in Moho. This type of vector art cannot be drawn in the vector drawing and animation program Moho. I wish it could.

I am not sure if you are aware of things one can do with the vector drawing style. It is truly amazing what one can do and then couple it with vector´s scalability and smaller size files it is great. (If only Moho could do it.)

And what does it say about Moho´s brushes and method of drawing if you think drawing a simple black line is easier in Gimp?
What does one need Moho for? Bones and a timeline?
(Heck, and you know as well as me, the animation you made there could be just as easily created in Flash or even Photoshop/ImageReady or other program.)

[Venkman]

Recipe: Put enough space between each of the three parts of the arm (upper-, lowerarm and hand), and also the rest of the robot (so there are no overlapping points as the part turns due to bone actions). The upperarm gets a bone, the elbow and lowerarm get a bone and the hand gets a bone. Put the base of the bone on the center of the turning circle of the joint and make the bone no longer than the length of the part. Adjust bone strength, so it covers the entire part. Now put them together with the Offset Bones tool.

YES! JUST LIKE THAT!!!

THANKS MAN, THANKS A LOT!

[Venkman]

So I'm animating my robot and I'm wondering.... I want him to be able to walk from left to right.... so when he switches between walking left and walking right and walking forward, he should look different, in other words, be drawn to be facing that directions

My question is... Do I have to draw my robot 3 different times for each direction? or is there and easier way of doing this.

I thought if i draw my robot looking right I can flip it to look left, but for some reason I'm having difficulty selecting everything I want to flip.... each later and each bone.

And besides the LEFT and RIGHT deal... is there a way to take my robot, which is currently looking forward, and have him facing right without drawing him over.?


EDIT: also, with the flipping thing, soemtimes my characters will having something on the left side of them that they don't have on the right... so i won't necessarily want the identical reverse image.

[jorgy]

So I'm animating my robot and I'm wondering.... I want him to be able to walk from left to right.... so when he switches between walking left and walking right and walking forward, he should look different, in other words, be drawn to be facing that directions

My question is... Do I have to draw my robot 3 different times for each direction? or is there and easier way of doing this.

I thought if i draw my robot looking right I can flip it to look left, but for some reason I'm having difficulty selecting everything I want to flip.... each later and each bone.

Basically, you're going to have to draw it again if you want different angles.

However, as you've discovered, if you flip your drawing you don't have to draw it again for the mirror image. The problems that you're having where not everything gets flipped can be fixed by flipping the entire layer. On layer properties, there is a check box for "Flip Horizontally" which you can select.

jorgy

[Venkman]

Okay cool....thank you

[Rasheed]

(Heck, and you know as well as me, the animation you made there could be just as easily created in Flash or even Photoshop/ImageReady or other program.)

I wonder, if you want to create clear animation, what good are those pretty pictures made in specialized vector painting programs? They are gone in 1/24th (or 1/25th or 1/30th) of a second. The viewer needs 6-8 frames to recognize the action, so it's important to simplify and abstract the character as much as possible*, so it "reads" easily. I think that LM has put this piece of animation knowledge into Moho. Character animation is a simplified and abstracted version of reality.

Now the background is another matter. It seems that in professional 2D animation nowadays all backgrounds are drawn as 3D.

*Note: No, that doesn't mean stick figures, but between photorealistic and stick figures exists a gradient of decreasing realism. According to the theory in Scott McCloud's "Understanding Comics" there is a triangle in visual arts.

I think that characters in character animations (char) should to be both more simple and more abstract than reality, while backgrounds (BG) can to be more realistic and less abstract.

There is a good reason for this. People can identify better with an iconified character, while they get the context of the story through a more realistic background. Of course, a less iconified character is less universal, so the villains tend to be more realistic than the heroes. This is true in life action as well. The villains have more depth of character, while the heroes are less well defined character-wise (every one has to like them).

I'm sorry if I haven't been clear enough with this explanation, I've just recently acquired the knowledge myself and English is not my native language.

[Toontoonz]

Rasheed - you seem to be interested in the abstract theoretics of animation and it is based solely on books you have read that are about animation done in the past.

You seem to think there is only one way to do things - what is written in the current animation book you are reading. There isn´t - there are a zillion ways to create art and animation - only limited by the creator´s imagination.
Maybe you want to do it, but I don´t want to make copies of Bugs Bunny, Road Runner, Disney or any other animated cartoons that were done in the past. I want to make my own art, not somebody elses. And I really don´t care what Scott McCloud or anyone else has to say about creating animation - remember, they are writing books to sell to people like you who think all the answers are in a book.

Your comment:
"I wonder, if you want to create clear animation, what good are those pretty pictures made in specialized vector painting programs? They are gone in 1/24th (or 1/25th or 1/30th) of a second."
Gee, how do they ever make regular movies that people want to see with their fantastic special effects and a myriad of shapes,colors, sounds, action and people and things going on screen (I´m thinking Star Wars, Lord of the Rings) when each frame in the movie only lasts 1/24th (or 1/25th or 1/30th) of a second??? Call up George Lucas and tell him he doesn´t know how to make a movie - it´s too cluttered with pretty pictures that go by too fast!!!

You say: "There is a good reason for this. People can identify better with an iconified character, while they get the context of the story through a more realistic background. "
How do you know? Have you ever made an animation (other than a few seconds long of something moving back and forth), written and published a book or screenplay, created and sold art, directed a movie, worked for an animation production company?
It´s a puzzle to me...If you know so much about it and understand the making of great animation so well, why aren´t you creating animations instead of spending your time reading animation books and preaching their gospel?
How long have you been playing around with Moho and involved in the subject of animation - isn´t it just a couple of months?

[Toontoonz]

Regarding rules and creativity...some quotes:

Hell, there are no rules here-- we're trying to accomplish something.
Thomas A. Edison (1847 - 1931)

The golden rule is that there are no golden rules.
George Bernard Shaw (1856 - 1950)

There are three rules for writing the novel. Unfortunately, no one knows what they are.
W. Somerset Maugham (1874 - 1965)

The only rules comedy can tolerate are those of taste, and the only limitations those of libel.
James Thurber (1894 - 1961)

There are two rules for success:
1) Never tell everything you know.
Roger H. Lincoln

If you obey all the rules, you miss all the fun.
Katherine Hepburn

Consulting the rules of composition before taking a photograph, is like consulting the laws of gravity before going for a walk.
Edward Weston

Rules and models destroy genius and art.
William Hazlitt

Imagination rules the world.
Napoleon Bonaparte

There are no rules for good photographs, there are only good photographs.
Ansel Adams

Rules are made for people who aren't willing to make up their own.
Chuck Yeager

There are no rules and regulations for perfect composition. If there were we would be able to put all the information into a computer and would come out with a masterpiece. We know that's impossible. You have to compose by the seat of your pants.
Arnold Newman

I don't care about the rules. In fact, if I don't break the rules at least 10 times in every song then I'm not doing my job properly.
Jeff Beck

People, they want me to teach school, but no matter what I could teach - I can teach you to be a lawyer, because there are certain rules. There are certain rules in being a doctor or in building houses. But, in making a picture, there are no rules. It's just your particular instinctual feeling for what it is.
George Sidney

Works of art make rules; rules do not make works of art.
Claude Debussy