Why I hesitate buying ASP

Genete · Post by **Genete** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:43 am

Astrocloud wrote:ASP is free from the Microsoft Webpage. You can use Microsoft Visual Web Developer (which is free) and go to http://www.asp.net/ for help.

BTW why are you posting here? I thought this was a discussion page for Anime Studio Pro. I'm guessing you want to make a cool display page for your Animation. I guess ASP can be used for that.

Well Anime Studio Pro seems to be a great tool for creating Anime. It is also relatively easy to learn unlike ASP.

In this forum ASP = Anime Studio Pro and AS = Anime Studio...
(If it were simply were continued been called Moho...

)

Astrocloud · Post by **Astrocloud** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:54 am

Genete wrote: In this forum ASP = Anime Studio Pro and AS = Anime Studio...
(If it were simply were continued been called Moho... )

Sometimes through sheer ignorance I will make a point.

Rasheed · Post by **Rasheed** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 9:11 am

Astrocloud wrote:ASP is free from the Microsoft Webpage. You can use Microsoft Visual Web Developer (which is free) and go to http://www.asp.net/ for help.

Err, there is no version for Mac OS X or any of the Linux distros. How quaint!

Patmals · Post by **Patmals** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:21 am

ASP = Active Server Pages

this is what you saw for free at microsof's website

Rasheed · Post by **Rasheed** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:17 am

You know, if I could create an animated movie using a pencil, a stack of paper, some crayons and a still camera on a stand, I would do it. However, it would take too long, compared to Anime Studio.

You should also consider that the $199 USD the Pro version will cost you includes additional artwork. Someone has to pay for it.

Having written that, I really don't like this business model of buying extra content for animation, like in the e frontier web store, nor as a paid add-on for software (which reminds me of bloatware). Judging from the comments when Moho became Anime Studio Pro, most active forum members don't like it either. We prefer to create our own characters, instead of limiting ourselves with (bitmap) stock artwork.

So, Anime Studio Pro is a bit of sweet and sour. I like the core program, but I don't like most of the add-ons.

I tried to use DAZ-3D last night. The program is free, but you need to convince two people who were previously unaware of DAZ-3D to have a look at the website. If you think Anime Studio Pro with its stock add-ons is bad, don't even consider free DAZ-3D. Its only revenue stream IS the add-on artwork (and web ads). The software is just a conduit to sell stock characters and such. There is no modeller, just some basic pose UI and a renderer. There also isn't a demo version, so you're stuck with a EULA and requirements to do something in return for you using the software. They call this "tellware".

I hated it so much, that I immediately posted in the forum how to unsubscribe, unregister and never have to hear of this load of c*** anymore. Well, I wrote it in nicer words, because I didn't want to hurt the feelings of the regulars (which I probably did anyway, because I wrote I didn't like the way the software was marketed as free, while it had this stupid requirement to do the advertising for them -- what is that, $50 USD per new user?).

So, Anime Studio isn't as bad as I initially thought. There is animation software out there, that is actually a lot worse. It is a mix of good software and bad marketing.

So, I'm now set to learn Blender, next to Anime Studio Pro. It is 3D animation software that is actually free, without any restrictions, so free as in beer (you get something more or less tangible for free).

BTW I hope I have hereby done my advertising duty for DAZ-3D. They didn't state it had to be positive advertising, just telling people where to get the software, at http://www.daz3d.com Please, don't go there, or you will be suckered in, just like me.

AmigaMan · Post by **AmigaMan** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:38 pm

Hi Zon,

Here is the commercial done in AS Pro that I mentioned earlier in this thread....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBWTEVH-pAk

Post by **Lost Marble** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:15 pm

It's hard to address all the points, but here are some things I can say:

Sorry the Papagayo website is out-of-date. I'll update it tonight to describe the Leopard situation. However, there is a version that runs on Leopard - it has some drawing glitches, but you can get it here:

http://www.lostmarble.com/downloads/pap ... eopard.zip

As someone else said, Papagayo is a separate, free product. It works well with Anime Studio, but please don't judge Anime Studio based on Papagayo. You can use Papagayo, or Magpie or Magpie Pro, or other lip-syncing products. (By the way, Papagayo is open source - if someone else wants to work on it, they can freely make changes.)

As far as Smith Micro...It's true that if you go to their main website, you wouldn't know they had anything to do with animation. I'm not sure why they keep it so well hidden, but try this site instead:

http://graphics.smithmicro.com/

As a company, Smith Micro is just newly into the graphics field. But that doesn't mean they're not solidly behind it. They bought the former company e frontier because they are serious about getting into graphics and design software. I honestly don't know why their website keeps this stuff hidden, or why it takes a long time to update, but they wouldn't have bought e frontier if they weren't serious.

-Mike

synthsin75 · Post by **synthsin75** » Fri Apr 11, 2008 10:38 pm

There you have it! If you can get this kind of response directly from the developer of the software, in a thriving user community like this forum (also ran by Mike), then I think that trumps most of the other complaints. I wasn't sold on ASP until I found this forum, and it has made all the difference. Who even needs documentation with a community like this?

P.s. Hopefully Mike has the future of ASP safegarded in a will or something, perhaps to go open source once he's done developing for it.

Post by **Lost Marble** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 6:41 am

synthsin75 wrote:P.s. Hopefully Mike has the future of ASP safegarded in a will or something, perhaps to go open source once he's done developing for it.

I've got to be careful what I say - I wouldn't want someone to put a hit out on me, hoping to trigger some GPL clause in my will. But no, I would never want Anime Studio disappear from the face of the earth.

-Mike

synthsin75 · Post by **synthsin75** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:55 am

That's reassuring. Long live Mike!! Hell, if only to keep this forum up and running.

Rasheed · Post by **Rasheed** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 9:25 am

You know, we all hear about software being released as open source, and may think it is the greatest thing in the world, because it's free to download and use.

OpenOffice is a good example of a good open source project. It got a lot of (cleaned up) code base from Sun when StarOffice was open sourced, plus, presumably, a big bag of money to pay the core developers.

And why was that? Not because Sun wanted to create a competitor for MS Office, but because they thought --correctly-- that office software was becoming a commodity, and that more money could be earned by offering service contracts to large companies, installing and maintaining open source software.

Unlike many people think, open source software isn't completely free, it is only free to install and execute. After you've installed it, you're on your own. You may find all the information you need on how to use it in documentation, but do you have to time? It is often more cost effective to pay someone to do this for you, especially when time is money (in large corporations).

I think that authoring software will not become a commodity any time soon. People still are enthralled with animation and don't see it as anything that is part of the daily grind, like printed office documents are today. And because people are willing to pay extra to see animation, creators are still willing to buy software that enables them to deliver.

And I also can't say that the market is particularly flooded with character animation software, or no more innovations are taking place.

Therefore, I don't see a good reason, based on business logic, to make Anime Studio open source, aside from the fact that there is no developer community (see how few of the community members are writing Lua scripts). On the contrary, I see the popularity of Anime Studio growing and a bright future ahead for the software and its community of users (that would be us).

Remember, open sourcing your software isn't some ideological decision, it is a pure business decision, knowing that you can make more money when the software is freely available and you have a large user base.

Yes, there are orphaned closed source projects that were open sourced, but those often don't fare so well. After a brief period of code development by enthusiasts, people get less interested and the project grinds to a halt.

And that is only if the previous closed source developer has rewritten the source code to be easily maintainable (especially with proper commenting). Many coders lack the discipline to add proper comments and documentation of the code. It is a sad fact, but so true.

Not only there has to be a reason to open source software, but also some serious effort to clean up the code, which costs money, and requires a business partner with deep pockets, either a venture capitalist, or a company that has good use for the software (e.g. because they use it themselves), willing to back the development community for several years when only few people use the software and there is no return on investment.

My 2 cents on open sourcing Anime Studio at some point in the future.

PS. While I don't see a reason to open the source code of animation software, I see a good reason to offer a cheap student version of your software. As a software developer, you want everyone to know how to use your software, so animation studios don't see unfamiliarity as a barrier to start using the software in their mix of applications. If you don't have to teach applicant animators how to use the software, that is a big plus on the balance sheet for an animation project. You save money and time and have a larger pool of animators to pick talent from.

I guess that is the reasoning behind the non-Pro version of Anime Studio.

I even see a case for even lowering the price of the non-Pro version even more, so more animators and animation schools adopt the software. There even is a case for offering a freeware version of the software, perhaps if it's only for the Linux version.

AmigaMan · Post by **AmigaMan** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 12:30 pm

Thanks Mike for responding.

One thing I have to get off my chest, and I don't want this to come across as moaning, but I'm just frustrated at lost opportunities.

Last night I installed the 5.6 update looking forward to testing out the animated layer ordering. I attempted to work it out myself without any luck. I looked in the help guides 'what's new' but no mention of the latest updates features. I had to come to this forum and search for Vern's explanation of the new features to find out how to use the layer ordering. It's incredibly simple.....once you know how.

Just something like Vern's description as a text file with the update would have helped but any other company would have made a big headline out of these and gone in depth on how to use them and what benefits they have. I'm sure someone on this forum would have been only too pleased to have created this as a PDF or something if asked.

Zon · Post by **Zon** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 4:56 pm

AmigaMan, I liked the commercial you linked to. You mentioned your part in the animation took 2 days. Could you elaborate on what you did and how much others did? What was the overall project time from start to finish?

On another note, I was inspired by feedback from this community about ASP5. I decided to take the plunge and order ASP5. Tried to buy it from the local Apple store last night but they didn't carry the pro version, so I ordered it from Amazon this morning, as well as the official AS guide.

Thanks again everyone for the continued feedback, and you Mike for the personal answer. I look forward to joining the ranks as a regular contributor on here one day, but I imagine it's going to be a while before I get that far.

VidE · Post by **VidE** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:34 pm

Zon, my experience with AS Pro, both in terms of its interface and capabilities, is a bit like my experience with Blender, an open source 3D program. Blender was initially developed by one guy, who created a good, basic program BUT, without some of the GUI niceties, or features, that a 'pro' program like Maya had. After all, one programmer can do only so much. But it was light and flexible. Since its early days, Blender still has a tricky GUI but has greatly expanded its features, in no small part due to the community that supports it back.

Same here. Moho/Anime Studio was developed to do a specific job, vector animation, by one guy. The GUI is dated and a bit quirky, but I'm assuming Mike spent his time working on features, not cool buttons. This isn't a big company product. OTOH, the focus has obviously been on developing capabilities that continue to make it easier to deal with certain animation tasks. And just like Blender's community, Anime Studio's community really rocks! They not only help you figure things out, some have developed new tools and scripts to further enhance the program.

So what AS lacks in up-front polish, it more than makes up for in both capabilities and community support. The tools, especially the drawing tools, can seem a bit odd and raw at first, compared to say, Adobe Illustrator. Give it some time and patience. AS seems simple but it is really quite sophisticated if you know how to use it. And this forum is THE place to find out the tricks that make it work. Stick with it and if you get discouraged, check out someone like the Greykids animations, they use ASPro as their primary tool. AS really can do the job.

AmigaMan · Post by **AmigaMan** » Sun Apr 13, 2008 4:12 pm

Hi Zon,

Pleased to hear you've taken the great step of purchasing Anime Studio Pro

I'm sure you won't regret it.

In answer to your questions....

For the commercial I received .png images of two characters already split into layers. I had to rig them and animate a simple walk cycle for a cut- out look. I completed one walk cycle each evening (about 5 or 6 hours I should think with the rigging) and the results are below...

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=EPl2q_G_MG8

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ZX522xyhBzY

The movement on the hair wasn't animated I just used a couple of 'springy bones'. AS Pro is full of useful high end tools like that

A colleague of mine did the animation of the lady facing forward with the shopping bags and I haven't a clue who did the rest of the ad. I think the whole thing was done in a week as it had to be completed very fast.

If you look on YouTube you should find some other short tests I've done in ASP too.