AS5.6 files cannot be read by 5.5 or Standard!!!

[DK]

Is anyone aware of this? AS 5.6 is not backwards compatible with any AS versions at all? I just tried to importa 5.6 file into both programs and it comes up with this -

"Could not open file - Error details - This file is from a newer version of MOHO, (heh), and cannot be opened by this version.

D.K

[Rasheed]

Yes, it is because of the new features, like layer switching. To be able to read with older versions, you need to manually remove the layer switching (it is in the file, even if you don't use layer switching). And, of course, you need to change the version number in the file as well. All with a text editor.

[heyvern]

There is some new stuff in the newer versions.

AS can't have ANYTHING in the text of the file format it doesn't understand. All you really need to do is remove anything that isn't part of the "old" version. Specifically the animated layer order or the translation path stuff. I don't think the texture fill adds anything new to the file format.

I haven't played with this yet to determine where or what needs to be removed but this can be done with a text editor if it is absolutely needed.

-vern

[DK]

I think the responsible thing to do for this is for SM to put in a "Save to 5.5/Standard or 5.6 options. I appreciate the great advice Rasheed but where do we all draw the line with workarounds? I create Content for CP and this is just a bloody pain in the arse! I'm going to have people screaming at me that they can't open files and was totally unaware of this?

D.K

[Genete]

I think the responsible thing to do for this is for SM to put in a "Save to 5.5/Standard or 5.6 options. I appreciate the great advice Rasheed but where do we all draw the line with workarounds? I create Content for CP and this is just a bloody pain in the arse! I'm going to have people screaming at me that they can't open files and was totally unaware of this?

D.K

Create the content with the old version unless you absolutely need the new features.
I believe that GK still using Moho he he...

[heyvern]

If you have a good plain text editor you could create a simple regex search and replace. jEdit is open source (free) and has regex support.

I'll see if I can whip up one for you if you are interested.

This is a common situation with many programs. I'm in the same boat with Animation Master. They changed the entire file format a couple versions back so I can't open new files in the old version.

Sometimes... things change.

-vern

[DK]

Hi Vern and Genete. I would appreciate any help as I have already created 3 products using 5.6 so it's a bit impractical for me to re-do them in AS 5.5 (they dont make a million dollars if you know what I mean . I would be very interested in this fix thanks Vern....it has also prompted me to write a letter to CP regarding this problem as i'm sure they don't want to go making refunds to people.

Cheers
D.K

[DK]

UPDATE:
I tried replacng the header file with an earlier version of AS-got me as far as this error - "Layer_ordering unknown" - I then replaced all the references to Layer ordering and get this - "error at line 13" message?
Now I'm stumped???

D.K

[heyvern]

You can't just delete the reference to layer ordering. You have to delete any keys and make sure the structure of the file format is correct.

AS files are structured... uh... sort of like XML... but not really. They have starting and closing brackets that have to match up and each set of enclosing brackets are indented. I am simplifying this greatly.

Below is the spot in a totally blank 5.6 ASP file. This file has one bone layer with one vector layer. The "layer_ordering" and the opening and closing "[]" brackets indicate the layer ordering key values.

Code: Select all

	### bone layer values
	expanded true
	group_mask 0
	depth_sort false
	distance_sort false
	layer_ordering
	[
		keys 1
			0 1 0.1 0.5 ""
	]

Same type of file set up using Moho v5.5. Note the missing "layer-ordering" and "[]" brackets.

Code: Select all

	### bone layer values
	expanded true
	group_mask 0
	depth_sort false
	distance_sort false
	skeleton

If the error is "line 13" look at line 13 and see what is there. That is the key to fixing it.
-----------

I will see if I can whip up a regex search and replace but you would need to test it. Many applications use different symbols for regex. I use jEdit mostly. Basically it would look for a line starting with "layer_ordering" and the starting and closing "[]" bracketed lines and delete them.

----------

I hate to be a pain... but...

... most of this responsibility is on you. You can't blame SM for messing up your work flow. If you have a situation that includes many people using the same software and you upgrade YOUR version without checking first to find out how that will effect the production pipeline....

YIKES!!!

You just don't... do that. You don't do that with ANY software. I've worked in many group situations (mostly desktop publishing situations but it's the same thing). We NEVER EVER upgrade "one person"... we do it all at once after TESTING OUT the new version of, software, OS, whatever to make sure it works with in the group.

You check to make sure that you aren't throwing a monkey wrench into the work flow. If it is too problematic to upgrade at that time then you don't do it.

This is not Smith Micros fault. Not by a long shot. I don't even consider it a bug either. New versions of software not being backwards compatible is not a bug. It is often a decision made by the programmers to make development easier.

Rule of thumb is never to upgrade software in the middle of a project.

-vern

[DK]

Thanks for the response Vern.

Easly fixed! I just put AS 5.6 compatible on all my new products. Easy,...then no-ones at fault If SM lose sales over this to AS 5.5 and AS standad users it's their problem.

Cheers
DK

[heyvern]

Glad it worked out for you!

I don't see how SM could lose sales from a patch upgrade... unless it was total crap... which it isn't.

The other thing is the fact this is an incremental update not a "new version". You can always reinstall the older version. If the features of this "patch" are so needed that you can't go back then everyone on your team should upgrade as well. Backwards compatibility is not usually on my list of worries or features... of course I'm mostly a one man shop. I would never return a GREAT program simply because it wasn't backward compatible.

This is like that volunteer project a while back... all the volunteers were using the Moho demo with a bootleg serial number... because they all couldn't afford buying the pro version of AS... You can't blame the software developer for that problem.

When you work with a team these are the issues you need to deal with.

-------------

p.s. Having said all that... it would be a very simple thing to have the application strip out the new features to save as an older version.

Maybe I could write a script to do this!?!?! Hmmm.... it should be pretty simple to create a menu script that saves out a copy of the file to work with older versions.

-vern

[mkelley]

Let me add one thing to this excellent discussion -- we are *very* lucky that Michael chose not to use a proprietary format for AS files.

I've actually never seen this before -- all of my work with professional software has been with files that are not only not downwardly compatible, but in a proprietary format that cannot be parsed or altered. It's a royal PITA to have to deal with issues that result from upgrading versions.

Having an ASCII file format is truly heaven and allows for so many possibilities it's a shame more products don't at least consider this (for some, like the 3D programs I work with, it might be completely unwieldy and bloated).

And as long as the 5.6 upgrade was free I don't see a compelling reason to have backwards compatibility -- if people buy your products, DK, they can just go ahead and upgrade (there doesn't appear to be any downside in upgrading that I can see).

If and when version 6.0 comes out (and costs money) then it might behoove SM to have a backwards path.

[heyvern]

Animation Master is a 3D application that has an ascii file format. Not only that they changed it recently so it is structured more like xml so technically it could be parsed that way.

It is really helpful for the reasons you describe. If a file gets corrupted a lot of times I've been able to fix it or copy out parts and paste into a good file. Often there are tricks like "flipping" half a model. By using search and replace with a text editor you can change the names of bones from "left" to "right" on a copy of a file and then import it in.

I use to do this with AS until I created that script for flipping and renaming bones.

I agree... I wish more applications had plain text file formats. I suppose it might be true that they can get bloated... Animation Master doesn't seem to have too much problem with that. Not any more than any other application that doesn't use plain text. I've had Quark Express files that are as big as any 3D file.

I hope SM doesn't change the file format.

p.s. One thing SM might want to do is have AS "ignore" features or code it doesn't understand. This would have two benefits... backwards compatibility and also the ability for scripters to store data in the file and not worry about it getting removed or causing trouble.

Of course no way to add this to old versions... this would have to happen in newer versions.

-vern

[DK]

Hi mkelley and Vern.
Yes...you're both right in what you say...they can just upgrade and it's my responsibility etc, I accept all that. What I am annoyed about is the lack of any information about this being released to users. I had to find out myself? If I knew about this I would'nt have wasted my time creating those products in AS 5.6. Also, I have been releasing several free products for CP that would normally work in AS Standard as well as AS 5.5? What about the standard users? I checked and there is no upgrade for them at all?

D.K

[DK]

YIPEEEEEE! I fixed it!!!!

First problem I had was including bone layers in my AS 5.6 file. AS soon as I replaced the bone layers with group layers, the simple text find and replace worked perfectly.....phew...Many many thanks to you Vern for the great help on this.

D.K