I've said this on a number of occasions, but despite the fact I own Toon Boom Studio (and owned it long before I had Anime Studio) I have never been able to do anything useful in it. That said, like a lot of people I always look at new software just in case it becomes the "holy grail" that makes all I've seen before obsolete. So I've been on the TB Digital Pro mailing list for quite some time (and even downloaded and played with the demo).
One of the nice things about the list is they do give you lessons on using the (incredibly complicated) products they sell. From time to time these lessons even apply to AS, so they are worth checking out. Today's lesson seemed worth looking at, as they were talking about using IK with a character that would otherwise have to be drawn by hand.
Here it is:
http://www.toonboom.com/products/digita ... imated.php
Now, first of all you'll all see that you can do this easily in AS with bones. But, more to the point, I think you'll see how insanely complicated TB DP is -- to rig this thing you must almost literally jump through hoops. (I really love the line "With Digital Pro, you can have it ready in a week or two!" Yipes. With AS I can have it ready in a minute or two :>)
I find it hard to believe that pro animators put up with this -- so it must be that TB is bought by admin types who feel the level of control is worth the price. I guess it might be if you have a shop of hundreds of animators all working on different parts of a project.
For this one-man shop it's pretty obvious that AS is about ten times as good -- and for a fraction (truly) of the cost.
Why someone *wouldn't* want Toon Boom Digital Pro
Moderators: Víctor Paredes, Belgarath, slowtiger
Re: Why someone *wouldn't* want Toon Boom Digital Pro
It's BECAUSE of the price they put up with it. I've talked to Martin Hash (Animation Master) about this "psychological phenomenon". So called "professionals" feel that "cheap" software is inherently "bad". The more they spend the more... "cache" they have. They can brag about it.mkelley wrote:I find it hard to believe that pro animators put up with this --
So the cheap software must be simple and easy to use, the expensive software has to be hard so the users can brag at how good they are. It's my opinion anyway. It's funny to me sometimes, my skills with AS are because of AS... I probably would stink at using ToonBoom.
I failed miserably at Flash animation and trying to learn those high end complicated polygon programs which is why I stuck with Animation Master.p.s. My eyes glazed over looking at the layer palette and network view in that tutorial... it could be I just need new glasses.
-vern
Yeah, you may be right -- I think all of us at one time or another have fallen victim to the conspicuous consumption mentality that makes us spend far more than is necessary.
And no, it's not glasses you need -- I tried rigging a character once in TB DP and got about 30 minutes into the process and realized it would take a week or two to finish. I can't imagine how anyone could be as productive with this as they can be with AS.
(To be fair, I guess the cell tools are exceptional -- seems to me that TB is really all about cell animation, and they threw in the IK and bone type stuff just to appease some folks. If I were a cell animator I might feel differently).
And no, it's not glasses you need -- I tried rigging a character once in TB DP and got about 30 minutes into the process and realized it would take a week or two to finish. I can't imagine how anyone could be as productive with this as they can be with AS.
(To be fair, I guess the cell tools are exceptional -- seems to me that TB is really all about cell animation, and they threw in the IK and bone type stuff just to appease some folks. If I were a cell animator I might feel differently).
ToonBoom has it place in my tool set. Or should I say: It has a very limited place. If you have to replace mouth movements on an animation, TB is faster, not better, faster. Or a very short and simple animation, such as a circle drop. The problem with TB is once you know how to draw and rig in AS, anything over 24 frames and you skip TB and head for AS.
I walked into a local animation studio and almost wanted to cry when I saw them working. Drawing very thing by hand. Takes three people two weeks to finish 24 seconds of animation. Hey they got a contract with the USA network and can afford it. Or can they?
Dale
I walked into a local animation studio and almost wanted to cry when I saw them working. Drawing very thing by hand. Takes three people two weeks to finish 24 seconds of animation. Hey they got a contract with the USA network and can afford it. Or can they?
Dale
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synthsin75
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Yeah, as soon as I saw that network needed to connect everything, my eyes glazed over as well. One of Vern's complex bone rigs would take months and months to setup that way.
I have TB basic. (
Which would you prefer? AS(s) or a case of TB?) I did a little with it before I found AS, but now I'd even be more apt to do frame-by-frame in AS.
Everytime I think of an animation studio using anything other than AS for their 2D work, I envision total sweat-shop conditions.
I have TB basic. (
Which would you prefer? AS(s) or a case of TB?) I did a little with it before I found AS, but now I'd even be more apt to do frame-by-frame in AS. Everytime I think of an animation studio using anything other than AS for their 2D work, I envision total sweat-shop conditions.
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blacksunproject
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Re: Why someone *wouldn't* want Toon Boom Digital Pro
Preach brother, preach!heyvern wrote:It's BECAUSE of the price they put up with it. I've talked to Martin Hash (Animation Master) about this "psychological phenomenon". So called "professionals" feel that "cheap" software is inherently "bad". The more they spend the more... "cache" they have. They can brag about it.mkelley wrote:I find it hard to believe that pro animators put up with this --
So the cheap software must be simple and easy to use, the expensive software has to be hard so the users can brag at how good they are. It's my opinion anyway. It's funny to me sometimes, my skills with AS are because of AS... I probably would stink at using ToonBoom.
p.s. My eyes glazed over looking at the layer palette and network view in that tutorial... it could be I just need new glasses.
-vern
I agree 100% with you Vern.
Animation Master and Anime Studio Pro are awesome!
Diamonds in the rough!
Gustavo
I own Toon Boom Studio 4.5 and ASP 5.6 and have played with the TBDP PLE and I have to say that IMO you are making a big deal out of nothing.
Having the nodes and connecting them looks more complicated and more difficult than it really is. I am reminded of a friend who used After Effects and couldn't fathom how connecting nodes in a program like Shake could be easier or just as fast.
From reading Vern's exploits on setting up bones, are they really that easy? How many different numbered files do you save in the process of developing a rig Vern? It seems that you do quite a bit of experimenting, trial and error and going back into the code of some of your scripts.
How much faster would that process go if you had a visual node-based interface to connect things and to experiment? TBDP has an SDK and Vern would most likely have deeper access to things. How many times has Vern complained about not having access to this or that and spending/wasting time looking for a hack/workaround? There are other aspects to why TBDP is more expensive.
And that is one thing I don't understand is why people somehow have this sour grapes or jealousy over another program. So you bought ASP, great for you but that doesn't mean that another program like Digital Pro or Toon Boom Studio are awful and over-priced.
So many on this board got excited with VectorMagic but now the program is selling for $295. I have ToonBoom Studio and it has built in vectorization and it does a very good job when you get up to speed with it. ASP sells for $200 and TBS for $400 (although for a good time this summer they were selling for $299 with a free upgrade to 4.5) but that one vectorization feature adds a lot of value. If one were to buy VectorMagic, Illustrator or an old copy of Freehand, or even Adobe Streamline, how much extra money would that be?
I read on this forum people having trouble with the Photoshop to Anime Studio script. I love that TBS imports Illustrator and Photoshop files and for me it is a very smooth process.
Being able to change the interface in TBS, being able to assign shortcuts, to modify toolbars, windows, etc, is wonderful. Having to do any of that in ASP is a nightmare in comparison. Nobody who has had the opportunity to use both programs can tell me that ASP has an easy or intuitive way of modifying the interface, toolbars, shortcuts. Isn't that worth paying more for a program?
It isn't one specific feature or part but the sum of all of those parts or features that make Toon Boom justified in charging what they do for their products. There is a little/more polish in the features, more finesse and more professionalism in how they conduct business.
Has anybody forgotten how the 5.5 to 5.6 upgrade went? First I bought 5.5 only to not have 5.5. After a month it was determined that the link I was given to download was not 5.5. And as far as 5.6, I first read that it was released on MacWorld but could find no links and got no notification. I was not alone. Hell, I remember Vern got really hot and blasted SmithMicro and everyone involved in that memorable posting.
I don't mind paying what I do for ToonBoom because of the extra care and professionalism that I have received. They also have an active upgrade cycle. I have gone from 3.5 to 4.0 to 4.5 in the course of 18 months. Each version added features, fixed bugs and has this feeling of moving forward. I just don't get that same feeling with ASP. I mean really, what has really changed in the past 4 or 5 years?
Imagine if Mike charged a bit more and had Vern and say 2 other programmers. How much better would the program be? What great new features?
Having the nodes and connecting them looks more complicated and more difficult than it really is. I am reminded of a friend who used After Effects and couldn't fathom how connecting nodes in a program like Shake could be easier or just as fast.
From reading Vern's exploits on setting up bones, are they really that easy? How many different numbered files do you save in the process of developing a rig Vern? It seems that you do quite a bit of experimenting, trial and error and going back into the code of some of your scripts.
How much faster would that process go if you had a visual node-based interface to connect things and to experiment? TBDP has an SDK and Vern would most likely have deeper access to things. How many times has Vern complained about not having access to this or that and spending/wasting time looking for a hack/workaround? There are other aspects to why TBDP is more expensive.
And that is one thing I don't understand is why people somehow have this sour grapes or jealousy over another program. So you bought ASP, great for you but that doesn't mean that another program like Digital Pro or Toon Boom Studio are awful and over-priced.
So many on this board got excited with VectorMagic but now the program is selling for $295. I have ToonBoom Studio and it has built in vectorization and it does a very good job when you get up to speed with it. ASP sells for $200 and TBS for $400 (although for a good time this summer they were selling for $299 with a free upgrade to 4.5) but that one vectorization feature adds a lot of value. If one were to buy VectorMagic, Illustrator or an old copy of Freehand, or even Adobe Streamline, how much extra money would that be?
I read on this forum people having trouble with the Photoshop to Anime Studio script. I love that TBS imports Illustrator and Photoshop files and for me it is a very smooth process.
Being able to change the interface in TBS, being able to assign shortcuts, to modify toolbars, windows, etc, is wonderful. Having to do any of that in ASP is a nightmare in comparison. Nobody who has had the opportunity to use both programs can tell me that ASP has an easy or intuitive way of modifying the interface, toolbars, shortcuts. Isn't that worth paying more for a program?
It isn't one specific feature or part but the sum of all of those parts or features that make Toon Boom justified in charging what they do for their products. There is a little/more polish in the features, more finesse and more professionalism in how they conduct business.
Has anybody forgotten how the 5.5 to 5.6 upgrade went? First I bought 5.5 only to not have 5.5. After a month it was determined that the link I was given to download was not 5.5. And as far as 5.6, I first read that it was released on MacWorld but could find no links and got no notification. I was not alone. Hell, I remember Vern got really hot and blasted SmithMicro and everyone involved in that memorable posting.
I don't mind paying what I do for ToonBoom because of the extra care and professionalism that I have received. They also have an active upgrade cycle. I have gone from 3.5 to 4.0 to 4.5 in the course of 18 months. Each version added features, fixed bugs and has this feeling of moving forward. I just don't get that same feeling with ASP. I mean really, what has really changed in the past 4 or 5 years?
Imagine if Mike charged a bit more and had Vern and say 2 other programmers. How much better would the program be? What great new features?
To be fair, I've never used ToonBoom, not even a free demo. Never used it, have absolutely no idea how hard or easy it would be to use. I have no idea how it works, don't know what a "peg" is (I knew a Peggy in school but that doesn't count).
My critique of the "nodes" is why use ANOTHER symbolic visual system to represent something that can be done with ONE symbol... hierarchical bones and child bones. There's no need for yet another window to see those relationships. I've used programs that had these interconnected symbolic node systems for linking things. That "node" representation was separate from the actual content. I PERSONALLY find it distracting.
SDK? that indicates the need to compile plugins. I wouldn't even have a clue how to compile anything. AS scripting is just plain text. I am not a "programmer". My skills with lua are very very rudimentary and basic. Yes there are a few things I would like to have access to via the script interface... and I have every hope that some of those things may come about in a future version.
Let's face it, this is the Anime Studio forum. When you love something and hang out with a bunch of other people who love the same thing, it's fun to bash the competitors. If anyone wants a "love fest" for ToonBoom go to their forum and bash AS.
-vern
My critique of the "nodes" is why use ANOTHER symbolic visual system to represent something that can be done with ONE symbol... hierarchical bones and child bones. There's no need for yet another window to see those relationships. I've used programs that had these interconnected symbolic node systems for linking things. That "node" representation was separate from the actual content. I PERSONALLY find it distracting.
SDK? that indicates the need to compile plugins. I wouldn't even have a clue how to compile anything. AS scripting is just plain text. I am not a "programmer". My skills with lua are very very rudimentary and basic. Yes there are a few things I would like to have access to via the script interface... and I have every hope that some of those things may come about in a future version.
Let's face it, this is the Anime Studio forum. When you love something and hang out with a bunch of other people who love the same thing, it's fun to bash the competitors. If anyone wants a "love fest" for ToonBoom go to their forum and bash AS.
-vern
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synthsin75
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If you randomly search the web for opinions of AS, you'll find plenty of dissension. So I think here, on our own forum, we should feel free to sow dissension against any other programs we like. Sure some of it may be knee-jerk, fan-boy talk, but we're allowed our die hard loyalties here.
I have used TB, and just couldn't make use of the peg system. It is just too unintuitive for me. I understand bones in a model. I think AS adopted all of the RIGHT ideas from the 3D animation world. I'd hate to have to mess with a hierarchy pipeline.
I have used TB, and just couldn't make use of the peg system. It is just too unintuitive for me. I understand bones in a model. I think AS adopted all of the RIGHT ideas from the 3D animation world. I'd hate to have to mess with a hierarchy pipeline.
Although I have some ToonBoom version here, I never even bothered to install. I just don't need it. I use AS and TVPaint (formerly Mirage).
One big problem with TB for me is their disinformation policy. I never was able to figure out which version has which features and which price tag, not from their web site and not from their PDFs. So I'm cautious about "TB can't do this or that" because it doesn't mention the exact version.
Kelley already said it:
I have heard lots of complaints about TB's overcomplicated interface and way to do things. But I remember complaining a lot about AS when I started. And I will never stop complaining about any 3D program, since I never found one which was easy to understand and intuitively to handle. (I talk about stuff like Maya and Blender, so don't mention those packages for children, please.) If someone wants to hire me and provides a bunch of programmers, I'm sure to be able to develop an easier way to work with complex programs like that.
One big problem with TB for me is their disinformation policy. I never was able to figure out which version has which features and which price tag, not from their web site and not from their PDFs. So I'm cautious about "TB can't do this or that" because it doesn't mention the exact version.
Kelley already said it:
This is true for TB Harmony, the big studio package with network and version control and an approval system for all files. If you run a studio with a hundred artists and bigger projects than a 5 minute short, then you are glad to have these means of control incorporated in a system, even if this means to give up some flexibility in style or workflow. In fact the established reliable workflow is what makes such a software worth its money.it must be that TB is bought by admin types who feel the level of control is worth the price.
I have heard lots of complaints about TB's overcomplicated interface and way to do things. But I remember complaining a lot about AS when I started. And I will never stop complaining about any 3D program, since I never found one which was easy to understand and intuitively to handle. (I talk about stuff like Maya and Blender, so don't mention those packages for children, please.) If someone wants to hire me and provides a bunch of programmers, I'm sure to be able to develop an easier way to work with complex programs like that.
Well, I really wasn't *trying* to bash TB in any way -- but even if someone thinks TB and all its variants are the cats pajamas must surely wonder at the line in that tutorial about how it will take a week or two to do that snake, when you can easily do it in AS in just a few minutes.
If TB is really quite easy to use once you get the hang of it, why the heck would they come out and say in their own tutorial that it takes so long to do something so simple? Or was that just a typo?
I actually think they are telling the truth there -- why lie in their own writing? -- and based on my experience with TB I find it exactly so. It takes an incredible amount of time to do something that in AS takes no time at all. Nothing to do with a learning curve -- I was doing this stuff in AS within fifteen or 20 minutes of installing the program, whereas I played with TB for weeks and STILL haven't been able to do anything useful with it.
Okay -- so perhaps I'm just stupid or perhaps the interface of TB just doesn't speak to me. I will grant that is a possibility (in my other life I use one of the two major music composition programs, and could never master the other one no matter how hard I tried. Yet thousands of people like that other program). And, as I said, I don't think TBs strength is in cutout animation -- it's clearly been added as an afterthought and not a very good one at that. If I were a cell animator I'm sure I'd be thrilled with it.
It's just that the tutorial struck me as really, really funny (funny in the sense they were saying how very easy this was to do, and how you could just do it in a week or two, and I was thinking how those poor people are using the program not even realizing there is a far far better way to do what they are trying to do). Heck, even died in the wool TB folks would benefit from AS in their toolbox if nothing more than to do this sort of thing.
If TB is really quite easy to use once you get the hang of it, why the heck would they come out and say in their own tutorial that it takes so long to do something so simple? Or was that just a typo?
I actually think they are telling the truth there -- why lie in their own writing? -- and based on my experience with TB I find it exactly so. It takes an incredible amount of time to do something that in AS takes no time at all. Nothing to do with a learning curve -- I was doing this stuff in AS within fifteen or 20 minutes of installing the program, whereas I played with TB for weeks and STILL haven't been able to do anything useful with it.
Okay -- so perhaps I'm just stupid or perhaps the interface of TB just doesn't speak to me. I will grant that is a possibility (in my other life I use one of the two major music composition programs, and could never master the other one no matter how hard I tried. Yet thousands of people like that other program). And, as I said, I don't think TBs strength is in cutout animation -- it's clearly been added as an afterthought and not a very good one at that. If I were a cell animator I'm sure I'd be thrilled with it.
It's just that the tutorial struck me as really, really funny (funny in the sense they were saying how very easy this was to do, and how you could just do it in a week or two, and I was thinking how those poor people are using the program not even realizing there is a far far better way to do what they are trying to do). Heck, even died in the wool TB folks would benefit from AS in their toolbox if nothing more than to do this sort of thing.
Toon Boom (Studio) in combination with AS Pro has been great. There are a number of things I prefer to do in Toon Boom-then move to AS as needed. I don't generally do cutout style.
I spent an hour or so at the Toon Boom booth at Siggraph, and had no problem with drawing and rigging a character with bones in that time (Digital Pro). I have a feeling that the TB 'system' and time frame is more oriented to character reuse (draw it once, rig it, and drop it into next week's episode). I don't know what you're talking about with the longer time frame.
Nodes (and noodles) are a quick way to stick things together, and to undo/redo indefinitely. Vastly superior to layers, and sublayers.
So, when it changed from MoHo to Anime Studio, with the substantial price increase, did anything improve, or even warrant the price change? I think the 'pro' versions of Toon Boom (or Animo, or Toonz, or whatever else) come with the price tag they do because people are making lots of money with these tools, and that profit ought to be shared with the tool maker (sort of). Smith Micro is a business, so I'm sure they needed to cover overhead and make a specific profit. Thus, charge more. Seems they don't make anything anyway, they just sell other people's stuff. "Cut in the Middleman".
I'll delve deeper later, if warranted. I just realized I have to go.
I spent an hour or so at the Toon Boom booth at Siggraph, and had no problem with drawing and rigging a character with bones in that time (Digital Pro). I have a feeling that the TB 'system' and time frame is more oriented to character reuse (draw it once, rig it, and drop it into next week's episode). I don't know what you're talking about with the longer time frame.
Nodes (and noodles) are a quick way to stick things together, and to undo/redo indefinitely. Vastly superior to layers, and sublayers.
So, when it changed from MoHo to Anime Studio, with the substantial price increase, did anything improve, or even warrant the price change? I think the 'pro' versions of Toon Boom (or Animo, or Toonz, or whatever else) come with the price tag they do because people are making lots of money with these tools, and that profit ought to be shared with the tool maker (sort of). Smith Micro is a business, so I'm sure they needed to cover overhead and make a specific profit. Thus, charge more. Seems they don't make anything anyway, they just sell other people's stuff. "Cut in the Middleman".
I'll delve deeper later, if warranted. I just realized I have to go.
So, furthermore, 'bashing' other software doesn't seem too common at the other places I hang out. Seems a little juvenile to me. Doesn't have to be one or the other, it can be both, and more.
Digital Pro isn't set up to be a facility-wide platform. It's for a small studio. Harmony, etc. are more set up for multiple users. File server, maintenance, render farm, etc. are a big part of Harmony.
I would dread using Anime Studio in a studio environment. Just not efficient enough for collaboration, file transfers, etc. I'd guess that anything beyond three animators, and AS would be a bottleneck. For one guy in a room, it's fine. Beyond that, there are a lot of other things to consider for full functionality.
-dm
Digital Pro isn't set up to be a facility-wide platform. It's for a small studio. Harmony, etc. are more set up for multiple users. File server, maintenance, render farm, etc. are a big part of Harmony.
I would dread using Anime Studio in a studio environment. Just not efficient enough for collaboration, file transfers, etc. I'd guess that anything beyond three animators, and AS would be a bottleneck. For one guy in a room, it's fine. Beyond that, there are a lot of other things to consider for full functionality.
-dm
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synthsin75
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I wouldn't call it 'bashing'. I just think many on this forum have a definite opinion about which is more useful. You have to keep in mind that most AS fans are one-man animation studios or hobbyist. Where the one-man studio may bring in enough income to afford TBDP, many hobbyists choke on the price of TBS.
Overall I think the debate is one of price versus the features needed by this limited group. Large studios can afford the price and probably more importantly the labor force to have people who specialize in certain aspects of the process. In a large studio, I image that not everyone needs to be fully versed with every feature of the software.
Don't begrudge us little guys our occational morale boosting call to arms. Believe me, it is harmless. Large studios have plenty of coworker support, and are just as protective of their software of choice. We don't have a studio water cooler. So we air it here.
Overall I think the debate is one of price versus the features needed by this limited group. Large studios can afford the price and probably more importantly the labor force to have people who specialize in certain aspects of the process. In a large studio, I image that not everyone needs to be fully versed with every feature of the software.
Don't begrudge us little guys our occational morale boosting call to arms. Believe me, it is harmless. Large studios have plenty of coworker support, and are just as protective of their software of choice. We don't have a studio water cooler. So we air it here.