GK,
I wouldn't mind if some sort of database was implemented as long as it never ended up with the convoluted structure of ToonBoom... and that's where your second comment really scares me.
I would NEVER (never, never, never, never, never) want to see the AS interface change enough to resemble TB. Truly, GK, if you have folks who have trouble learning how to use the (simple) AS timeline, you have the wrong people working for you. I'd fire anyone who couldn't learn it in an afternoon.
I'm not saying it's more efficient for production work, only that it's not that complicated a structure to learn -- and saying folks are having trouble with it says a lot more about the folks than it does about the software.
But you have a different world to deal with than I do. I'm a one man shop doing a weekly series and changing AS to help with a multi-artist pipeline would only slow me down. Perhaps the better way would be a multi-tiered software (like TB only understandable :>) that had something for us as well as you big guys. Given SM's resources, I don't think that's going to happen but you never know.
Anime Studio Quality
Moderators: Víctor Paredes, Belgarath, slowtiger
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Freakish Kid
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Hi mkelly,
Its not a case of something easy to learn, you've got to understand that most animators who have turned digital have done it with flash or toonboom. So what they perceive as the norm isn't with AS. It's just a question of which software they have used.
To be honest AS isn't a tool for the whole production, just like Flash and Toonboom aren't, they are good at animation nothing else. Flash is great for storyboard and layout also so it makes sense to do pre-production there.
It's the whole 'create @ 0' thing that confuses people - most of them create symbols in Flash then drag and drop on the timeline, this is where it becomes confusing for them. It just frustrates for a while is all, most people can adapt and sooner or later it becomes second knowledge.
And having some sort of data base system, convoluted or not, is better than not having one.
Fortunately i think more about a persons talent with animation than their knowledge of software so don't fire people just because they are confused or frustrated. Again if someone learnt a piece of software over the years they are used to that software.
We also have to remember that because of their maketing budgets a lot more professional animators are aware of TB and Flash. A shame as I believe that AS is the better of the bunch or we wouldn't be using it. Though we have implemented a system of animation that works across the softwares, and often mix and match scenes from the 3, without a client noticing.
I know everyone bashes TB, but to some animators it feels a lot more normal because of the exposure sheet etc, stuff that traditional animators have learnt and used for years.
For series work though I think the safest option (and it does have to be the safest as its someone elses money you are spending) would be Flash
Its not a case of something easy to learn, you've got to understand that most animators who have turned digital have done it with flash or toonboom. So what they perceive as the norm isn't with AS. It's just a question of which software they have used.
To be honest AS isn't a tool for the whole production, just like Flash and Toonboom aren't, they are good at animation nothing else. Flash is great for storyboard and layout also so it makes sense to do pre-production there.
It's the whole 'create @ 0' thing that confuses people - most of them create symbols in Flash then drag and drop on the timeline, this is where it becomes confusing for them. It just frustrates for a while is all, most people can adapt and sooner or later it becomes second knowledge.
And having some sort of data base system, convoluted or not, is better than not having one.
Fortunately i think more about a persons talent with animation than their knowledge of software so don't fire people just because they are confused or frustrated. Again if someone learnt a piece of software over the years they are used to that software.
We also have to remember that because of their maketing budgets a lot more professional animators are aware of TB and Flash. A shame as I believe that AS is the better of the bunch or we wouldn't be using it. Though we have implemented a system of animation that works across the softwares, and often mix and match scenes from the 3, without a client noticing.
I know everyone bashes TB, but to some animators it feels a lot more normal because of the exposure sheet etc, stuff that traditional animators have learnt and used for years.
For series work though I think the safest option (and it does have to be the safest as its someone elses money you are spending) would be Flash
I agree with GK's comments. ASP is certainly not the tool to use for a big production. Too many 'work arounds' needed to deal with it.
Something about 'support': It's not about complexity. Offering training seminars is very helpful. An interactive couple of days of training gets the group up and running quickly. Having a person to call with stupid questions is generally worthwhile. The upfront cost is nothing compared to production costs (and delays). I've said this before. The 'forum' is great, but I don't think it's viable for a production.
I find ASP more convoluted than Toon Boom. I was up and functional with Toon Boom in about a day. It follows the same interface conventions that a lot of other software uses. AS took two days. Things are different. Space bar? I can stumble through most of what TB does without the instructions. ASP, not so much.
AS seems to have been made by a programmer with an interest in animation. Most of the animators I work with have little interest in software. They sit around and draw all day. The software needs to work for them with the least 'left brain' thought possible. That's one of my biggest problems with AS. Fire an animator because he can't deal with the software? I don't think so. Basing artist choice on software is absurd. "Sorry Joe, I know you'd make $50,000 on this job, but you can't use the $200 software we chose, so you're out." The software doesn't make film good, the animator does.
So, I've said all that. No, I'm not a 'huge fan' of AS. It's a tool, and it has its place. I think I've purchased 10 or 12 copies myself over the years, and probably 30+ more than that through various productions. The job I want it on will be mixed. Probably Maya or Cinema4D, Toon Boom, Anime Studio, Photoshop, and Nuke or Shake. We have two people slotted for 'asset management'. Anime studio would probably have the largest single group attached to it in the end.
The production manager is right to be concerned. He's got visions of thousands of dollars an hour vaporizing while production is stopped on this 'consumer' software. It is his responsibility to deliver the job on budget. It's all his responsibility in the end. He's the one putting his job on the line. Hopefully, I'll get the tools and people that I think are best for this job.
-dm
Something about 'support': It's not about complexity. Offering training seminars is very helpful. An interactive couple of days of training gets the group up and running quickly. Having a person to call with stupid questions is generally worthwhile. The upfront cost is nothing compared to production costs (and delays). I've said this before. The 'forum' is great, but I don't think it's viable for a production.
I find ASP more convoluted than Toon Boom. I was up and functional with Toon Boom in about a day. It follows the same interface conventions that a lot of other software uses. AS took two days. Things are different. Space bar? I can stumble through most of what TB does without the instructions. ASP, not so much.
AS seems to have been made by a programmer with an interest in animation. Most of the animators I work with have little interest in software. They sit around and draw all day. The software needs to work for them with the least 'left brain' thought possible. That's one of my biggest problems with AS. Fire an animator because he can't deal with the software? I don't think so. Basing artist choice on software is absurd. "Sorry Joe, I know you'd make $50,000 on this job, but you can't use the $200 software we chose, so you're out." The software doesn't make film good, the animator does.
So, I've said all that. No, I'm not a 'huge fan' of AS. It's a tool, and it has its place. I think I've purchased 10 or 12 copies myself over the years, and probably 30+ more than that through various productions. The job I want it on will be mixed. Probably Maya or Cinema4D, Toon Boom, Anime Studio, Photoshop, and Nuke or Shake. We have two people slotted for 'asset management'. Anime studio would probably have the largest single group attached to it in the end.
The production manager is right to be concerned. He's got visions of thousands of dollars an hour vaporizing while production is stopped on this 'consumer' software. It is his responsibility to deliver the job on budget. It's all his responsibility in the end. He's the one putting his job on the line. Hopefully, I'll get the tools and people that I think are best for this job.
-dm
The only other thing I'll say here is that whenever folks say they wish AS were more like TB (or Flash, or whatever) I always wonder -- WHY?
I don't wish the Mac was more like a PC. I don't want my Durango to be like a sports car. AS is what it is. Make it enough like TB and, guess what?, you might as well buy TB. Or perhaps you should complain to the TB and Flash folks to make it "more like AS".
Wishing a horse could swim is very imaginative, but not really worthwhile for you or the horse. The horse might learn to cross a stream and even perhaps grow to like the water, but it ain't never going to be a fish. And if it were it wouldn't be very good at being a horse.
I'm not saying that's what GK is asking for -- I understand he simply wants some changes here and there to make it a more viable tool for him. But I also think the things that would make AS more production oriented are most likely going to be things that will also make it more cumbersome to use for a one-man shop.
But I won't complain -- I don't think AS is going to change in any significant way that will cause me a heartache. The flip side is that I don't think it will change in any way that will make it more viable for GK and dm. I don't truly wish bad for them in that regard, but the practical side is they have alternatives and I don't (which is to say that if AS became TB then I'd have to go shoot myself :>)
I don't wish the Mac was more like a PC. I don't want my Durango to be like a sports car. AS is what it is. Make it enough like TB and, guess what?, you might as well buy TB. Or perhaps you should complain to the TB and Flash folks to make it "more like AS".
Wishing a horse could swim is very imaginative, but not really worthwhile for you or the horse. The horse might learn to cross a stream and even perhaps grow to like the water, but it ain't never going to be a fish. And if it were it wouldn't be very good at being a horse.
I'm not saying that's what GK is asking for -- I understand he simply wants some changes here and there to make it a more viable tool for him. But I also think the things that would make AS more production oriented are most likely going to be things that will also make it more cumbersome to use for a one-man shop.
But I won't complain -- I don't think AS is going to change in any significant way that will cause me a heartache. The flip side is that I don't think it will change in any way that will make it more viable for GK and dm. I don't truly wish bad for them in that regard, but the practical side is they have alternatives and I don't (which is to say that if AS became TB then I'd have to go shoot myself :>)
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Freakish Kid
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I think you miss my point, I do not think the program should change. Its great the way it is, it works and produces excellent stuff. Its just that things are needed to make it a more viable production tool, and these things are in the interface and organization.mkelley wrote:But I won't complain -- I don't think AS is going to change in any significant way that will cause me a heartache. The flip side is that I don't think it will change in any way that will make it more viable for GK and dm. I don't truly wish bad for them in that regard, but the practical side is they have alternatives and I don't (which is to say that if AS became TB then I'd have to go shoot myself :>)
GK
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synthsin75
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And of course I have to pipe in. 
As far as support goes, you're right this forum alone wouldn't be viable for a production. But I'm sure there are plenty of highly experienced "huge AS fans" that would be willing to provide personal support, perhaps in a freelance capacity. Many of us can find a solution if we don't already know one. Hell, a few might even be willing to do a training seminar.
That's one problem. Aside from the developers, I'd be willing to bet you can't find more experienced teachers than right here.
As far as asset management, there could be a structured template for a standard project. But overall, how would you mix the organizational methods provided in the different software? I sure that at some point you have to manage it with either a specialty app or personal organization.
_____________________________________________
But aside from everything else, there are going to be some things needed from these big production guys if they need these improvements. Most of all are details, details, details.
Saying "like TB or Flash" isn't going to cut it.
I'm positive scripting can alleviate some of these, but until someone decides to hire a scripter to do the work, you're just at the mercy of these guys' hobby. And I don't think anyone is interested in donating hard work to a for-profit production.
Don't get me wrong, GK has done some good in giving AS exposure, but it doesn't sound like they are really interested in seriously pushing it. Organizational/logistical problems can't be that dire (or there's just no 'left brain' people on staff).
Unless of course, someone would like to explain some of these 'nightmares' in detail. We cannot have sympathy for things we've never seen.
As far as support goes, you're right this forum alone wouldn't be viable for a production. But I'm sure there are plenty of highly experienced "huge AS fans" that would be willing to provide personal support, perhaps in a freelance capacity. Many of us can find a solution if we don't already know one. Hell, a few might even be willing to do a training seminar.
That's one problem. Aside from the developers, I'd be willing to bet you can't find more experienced teachers than right here.
As far as asset management, there could be a structured template for a standard project. But overall, how would you mix the organizational methods provided in the different software? I sure that at some point you have to manage it with either a specialty app or personal organization.
But how much animation where you able to create the day following the learning of each. If you're honest and gave it a fair go, you'd have to admit AS was more productive. And by a factor that far exceeds the difference in learning curves.I find ASP more convoluted than Toon Boom. I was up and functional with Toon Boom in about a day. It follows the same interface conventions that a lot of other software uses. AS took two days. Things are different. Space bar? I can stumble through most of what TB does without the instructions. ASP, not so much.
_____________________________________________
But aside from everything else, there are going to be some things needed from these big production guys if they need these improvements. Most of all are details, details, details.
Saying "like TB or Flash" isn't going to cut it.
I'm positive scripting can alleviate some of these, but until someone decides to hire a scripter to do the work, you're just at the mercy of these guys' hobby. And I don't think anyone is interested in donating hard work to a for-profit production.
It would be nice to hear some details on this technique. But I'm assuming that's the rub. These sort of things tend to become proprietary so as not to help the competition. The problem with this is that it also makes any voluntary help a one-way street.We've got a massive series coming up and we need to use the software (cause we have developed a great technique for it)...
Don't get me wrong, GK has done some good in giving AS exposure, but it doesn't sound like they are really interested in seriously pushing it. Organizational/logistical problems can't be that dire (or there's just no 'left brain' people on staff).
Unless of course, someone would like to explain some of these 'nightmares' in detail. We cannot have sympathy for things we've never seen.
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Freakish Kid
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Oh dear,
you make a comment and everyone goes up in arms.
Once again, there's nothing wrong with this software, I was speaking from a major production point of view. Adding what it would need to make producers look at it more seriously. An opinion which I feel I'm qualified to make guys!
We don't use any other software for production (Flash and TB are used by some of our freelancers) we only use AS. The technique is nothing special just the way we go about animating it, which we'll gladly share with the community once we've finished it.
Also support isn't a necessity, most productions would have experienced technical directors on the project - i know we do.
But when you have 30 people all animating different scenes and using various models from other scenes etc there's a lot of stuff flying around it can become a little confusing.
Anyone asks me I always show the way to AS, its leagues above the others as far as animation production is concerned and yes, i am very, very serious in my business and in pushing this program with my business.
GK
you make a comment and everyone goes up in arms.
Once again, there's nothing wrong with this software, I was speaking from a major production point of view. Adding what it would need to make producers look at it more seriously. An opinion which I feel I'm qualified to make guys!
We don't use any other software for production (Flash and TB are used by some of our freelancers) we only use AS. The technique is nothing special just the way we go about animating it, which we'll gladly share with the community once we've finished it.
Also support isn't a necessity, most productions would have experienced technical directors on the project - i know we do.
But when you have 30 people all animating different scenes and using various models from other scenes etc there's a lot of stuff flying around it can become a little confusing.
Anyone asks me I always show the way to AS, its leagues above the others as far as animation production is concerned and yes, i am very, very serious in my business and in pushing this program with my business.
GK
I'd be interested is hearing some more details/ideas GK as to what exactly needs to be implemented into AS to make in more viable for large productions. There may be scripting solutions that could be brain stormed and even implemented by some of the great scripters here on the forum.
To me THAT's what makes AS stand away from the other players. Not to mention Mike is watching.
Cheers
D.K
To me THAT's what makes AS stand away from the other players. Not to mention Mike is watching.
Cheers
D.K
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synthsin75
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Sorry, didn't mean to come off that way.
As a scripter myself, I would be interested in hearing about the details of what you'd need in asset management. It seems to me that it's just a matter of organization, but that may not be the whole story.
p.s. Most of the angst is directed at DM who always seems to be very eager to jump all over the shortcomings of AS.
I was under the impression you used a mix of software. My misunderstanding.We don't use any other software for production (Flash and TB are used by some of our freelancers) we only use AS.
As a scripter myself, I would be interested in hearing about the details of what you'd need in asset management. It seems to me that it's just a matter of organization, but that may not be the whole story.
p.s. Most of the angst is directed at DM who always seems to be very eager to jump all over the shortcomings of AS.
I agree with GreyKid.
AS is a fantastic animation tool but a bit awkward to use in productions.
I'll list a few examples which would makeAS much much easier to use in production if fixed but without changing the user experience or make it more difficult for the ordinary amateur or the semi-pro that are in majority among AS-users.
Reusing/linking material. To use a rigged character in several scenes you can import it into different scenes. But when the producer comes with the idea that the character should have a nose twice the size I don't want to be the guy having to change the nose in all those scenes. Allowing linking would mean you update the character in one file and all scenes using it would automatically be updated.
Timeline. Your director says very nice animation but have the character do that motion half a second later. You have to spend the next hour or so digging through all layers to find every keyframe that needs to be shifted. Blinking at the raising sun you smile at the director who says very nice, could you move that motion slightly earlier?
Director says beautiful camera truck, can you do it smoother without the quirks? -No you can't. This is a serious bug in AS, you can't have motion going smooth through keyframes without AS adding a tiny little ease in/ease out around the key. Especially visible with camera trucks I've noticed.
AS is a fantastic animation tool but a bit awkward to use in productions.
I'll list a few examples which would makeAS much much easier to use in production if fixed but without changing the user experience or make it more difficult for the ordinary amateur or the semi-pro that are in majority among AS-users.
Reusing/linking material. To use a rigged character in several scenes you can import it into different scenes. But when the producer comes with the idea that the character should have a nose twice the size I don't want to be the guy having to change the nose in all those scenes. Allowing linking would mean you update the character in one file and all scenes using it would automatically be updated.
Timeline. Your director says very nice animation but have the character do that motion half a second later. You have to spend the next hour or so digging through all layers to find every keyframe that needs to be shifted. Blinking at the raising sun you smile at the director who says very nice, could you move that motion slightly earlier?
Director says beautiful camera truck, can you do it smoother without the quirks? -No you can't. This is a serious bug in AS, you can't have motion going smooth through keyframes without AS adding a tiny little ease in/ease out around the key. Especially visible with camera trucks I've noticed.
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Freakish Kid
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Phew, glad thats all cleared up!
@DK: Its an idea, I'm sure all this stuff is solvable.
@synthsin75: We use only AS for animation, we comp in another software cause AS doesn't give us the level of detail we need.
@rylleman: A lot of what you say about the timeline and corrections is very true, in fact my animators hate when I ask for corrections. As such we've tried to develop a way of working that requires little correction - unfortunately though that never works out!!!
GK
@DK: Its an idea, I'm sure all this stuff is solvable.
@synthsin75: We use only AS for animation, we comp in another software cause AS doesn't give us the level of detail we need.
@rylleman: A lot of what you say about the timeline and corrections is very true, in fact my animators hate when I ask for corrections. As such we've tried to develop a way of working that requires little correction - unfortunately though that never works out!!!
GK
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synthsin75
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Sounds like a director trying to direct an animation project as if it were live-action. These are the bad habits produced by the use of Flash. Animation has always been about good planning. You get the director to sign off on character design. This is probably why I'll never work in such a production. I'd say,"If you signed off on it, deal with it".
Overall this is just the sign of a bad director.
That said, linked assets would be a great feature and would benefit everyone from big production to one-man studio.
Overall this is just the sign of a bad director.
That said, linked assets would be a great feature and would benefit everyone from big production to one-man studio.
Depends on how you animate it. Rescale keyframes can do much of this, but a more intuitive method could be implemented.You have to spend the next hour or so digging through all layers to find every keyframe that needs to be shifted.
Any way you could post a very simple example of this problem. I've never heard of it and would very much like to investigate it.This is a serious bug in AS, you can't have motion going smooth through keyframes without AS adding a tiny little ease in/ease out around the key.
Synth, Its very easy to take your comments the wrong way ( I know I have in the past), but you should really think a little more before posting some of the stuff you write.synthsin75 wrote: Overall this is just the sign of a bad director. :
I'm hoping this isn't directed at GK who is an extremely good director. And through the years has done an awful lot for this software.
Thanks
Call me Crazy, but I think Smith Micro would be very interested in making Anime Studio more production studio friendly. As long as it's done in a way that doesn't adversely impact the single-user flow, then I'm all for it.
@GK: I noticed that you never submitted a list of top 10 requested features. I'm sure there's a good reason for that, but I can't help mentioning it, as I know a lot of us would be interested to know what you and your animators would like to change about AnimeStudio to make it more production-friendly.
@GK: I noticed that you never submitted a list of top 10 requested features. I'm sure there's a good reason for that, but I can't help mentioning it, as I know a lot of us would be interested to know what you and your animators would like to change about AnimeStudio to make it more production-friendly.
Of course, but there are already bug reports covering this. search for keyframe interpolation.synthsin75 wrote:Any way you could post a very simple example of this problem. I've never heard of it and would very much like to investigate it.This is a serious bug in AS, you can't have motion going smooth through keyframes without AS adding a tiny little ease in/ease out around the key.
Ill post some examples when I get time but in the meantime its very easy to encounter.
Add a keyframe to a layer or the camera. Move the layer/camera some frames later. -All smooth interpolated.
Open up the graph editor for the channel. See that nice arch? Add a keyframe in between those two keys, just rightclick and add it so you dont accidently move the layer.
As you create the keyframe you see that the line changes, gets deformed form a nice curve to a bulging curve.
Zoom in on this new keyframe and you see that there is a tiny little bulge on either side of this new keyframe, an ease in/out, where it should be going just straight through.
Depending on the situation this could be very visible, as in smooth camera moves.