Moho Forum

Toontoonz wrote:Removing the bones in an animation in Moho defeats the purpose of using Moho.

Oh, I didn't know that. Thanks for informing me

Why then hasn't LM solved this problem yet, if bones are such an important part of the program?

RASH wrote:Why then hasn't LM solved this problem yet, if bones are such an important part of the program?

Because the bones are connected to each other and therefore influenced by each others movement, if they didn't there would be no point in using a bone system.
Learn to work with the tools and this issue wouldn't be much of a problem.

Removing the bones in an animation in Moho defeats the purpose of using Moho

I would have thought RASH's point was perfectly valid. You can use the program any way you like. I like the covenience of rigging characters with bones, but there can be many ways of achieving something. The ony rule is: does it work?

J

Rash - You made a simple, point-to-point animation without using any bones and then you said you solved the Moho flow problem. How can you solve a problem if you don´t use the crucial, integral elements that make up the problem?

It´s like driving a car and a person has a problems shifting the manual transmission and you tell them you have solved their manual shifting problems by driving a car with an automatic transmission.

------
Regarding your comment:
"Why then hasn't LM solved this problem yet, if bones are such an important part of the program?"
It´s not Lost Marble´s problem regarding the bones - it´s art. It´s the animator´s decision to work with the Moho flow or not. Some people like the Moho flow effect, some don´t. Those that don´t care for the Moho flow have to use their skills and talents and other techniques and tricks to negate the effect.

jahnocli wrote: I would have thought RASH's point was perfectly valid. You can use the program any way you like. I like the covenience of rigging characters with bones, but there can be many ways of achieving something. The ony rule is: does it work?

J

Try to create the animation made in
http://www.lostmarble.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1602
using Rash´s animation method.

Well, yeah, but the whole point is that you wouldn't use RASH's method for that particular effect. To solve different problems, you may need different processes -- I thought that was all we were saying...or am I missing something?

J

The topic (or the problem) is just one: the "Moho flow" - as noted in the first post:
"In another forum topic: http://www.lostmarble.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1602
A comment was made (by nobudget):
"I notice the typical "floating" look Moho interpolation often has (I'm guilty too!),"

You cannot use the animation method that Rash described to even remotely make a complex animation like what is in the forum above - so why even bring it up?
That does nothing to solve the "Moho flow" floating phenomenon that is created when a complex, multi-boned character with mulitple appendages moves from action to action, position to position within the animation.
-You could solve the Moho flow situation by drawing each image by hand, scan them in as images and do a frame-by-frame animation in Moho.
-You could solve it by rotoscoping live action.
-You could solve the situation by using talking blobs instead of characters with lots of arms and legs.
But none of these types of animation techniques have anything to to with the stopping the "Moho flow" caused using the Moho bone animation technique as it interpolates the movement of the character from action to action, postion to position.

Have you ever created a Moho animation (in which the characters had bones) and it had the floating look (as described at the top)? Did you like the "floating" look? If not, how did you get rid of it?

Toontoonz wrote:Did you like the "floating" look? If not, how did you get rid of it?

I've stated that the only way to get rid of floating is to animate, not just move things around, put in the necessary keys and make use of interpolation.
Upload a scene with floating motion and I'll show you what I mean (not to long though).

Thanks, but as I detailed in my previous posts, I have figured how to get rid of it.
I thought this forum could be a place where people had other ideas and thoughts on the subject and those that don´t know how to solve Moho flow floatation situation could read how others solve the problems.

I wish I never brought it up.... The solution is easy, just keyframe every frame. But Moho is so advanced it CAN interpolate and animators (like myself) can get lazy and depend on the program too much. Moho can do both frame-by-frame and interpolation, we choose, we happy, end of story.

The way to get rid of it (if you want to) is work, work and more work. In every animation program you need to finetune and experiment to get it (close to) perfect. All points made here are valid, opinions differ but that's ok. Now everybody back to business, put on a HAPPY face

Reindert.
www.nobudgetvideo.com

nobudget wrote:I wish I never brought it up....

Well, I'm happy you nevertheless did It's now clear to me that if you can picture your character in your mind as a living, breahing person, it's so much easier.

So my hunch was correct (although clumsely stated) when I wrote:

walk cycles can also be created without bones

Perhaps I should write: if you cannot created walk cycles without bones, you probably have problems creating walk cycles (or whatever other character animation) with bones.

Could this be the solution to this problem?

Bones are a tool, just like any other. Use them correctly and the result is good, use them in the wrong way and...well, you know... 3D aps have the same kind of bone structure and the same problems, only the best animators can create good movements. I haven't done a lot of experimenting but if I find the time I want to capture some real-life footage of moving people, use that as a background video and make the bones follow the human movements. That way I can really find out how actual movement works, the way muscles, bones and gravity work together. Basically rotoscoping with bones.

Animation is an interpretation of reality, not a duplication, but it does give more insight in the process.

Reindert.
www.nobudgetvideo.com

nobudget wrote:Bones are a tool, just like any other. Use them correctly and the result is good, use them in the wrong way and...well, you know... 3D aps have the same kind of bone structure and the same problems, only the best animators can create good movements. I haven't done a lot of experimenting but if I find the time I want to capture some real-life footage of moving people, use that as a background video and make the bones follow the human movements. That way I can really find out how actual movement works, the way muscles, bones and gravity work together. Basically rotoscoping with bones.

Animation is an interpretation of reality, not a duplication, but it does give more insight in the process.

Exactly. A big part of the floaty look comes from timing (or lack of it) and not knowing when something needs to stop moving and when it should be moving. It's a very big problem with people just learning any software based animation system. The graph tools in Moho are a touch more difficult to use than most apps (like Maya or After Effects, that both allow direct tangent controls), but you can get around it by using more keys.

Some hints:
-Nobudget has had the best advice. Really spend some time analising the real world. You'll find that everything is in motion while walking, but all at different speeds. Muybridge's books are great for this.
-Once you've got the realworld down, try stylizing it. Animation works by distilling down the important acitons into an iconized version of it. Nobody runs like Mister Incredible, but you buy it instantly, because they've accentuated what makes it look like a big dude running. Being an animator is a bit like a magician drawing the audience's attention to where you want it to be drawn. An animator accentuates the important elements so they don't have to animate all of the other elements. In my opinion, this is also part of why mocap doesn't work nearly as well, it captures the basic movement without accentuating any of it and misses out on the details (which in turn the audience conciously or otherwise picks up on it).
-Vary the speed of things. If everything uses the default spline interpolation and all starts and stops on the same frame or drifts from one spot to another, it's going to look floaty or computery. Try speeding things up, too. More often than not a new computer animator will animate too slowly (that is their character moves too slowly). Ironically, it's usually the oposite with new "traditional" media animators. Again, mix fast and slower motions. A leg moves a different rates as it continues through its arc in a walk.
-Do exercises like animating a robot or someone hip-hop dancing. Lots of "pop and lock" types of motion. The floaty look often comes from a body sort of drifting and never actually stopping.
-Practice. If it doesn't look right. Try to tweak it. If that doesn't work, do it over. You'd be suprised at how much faster (and usually better) you'll do it the second time.

All of this has nothing to do with Moho or any other software, it's merely the result of the animator's skills and efforts, intentional or otherwise.

RASH wrote:
I only used add points, translate points, union skinning, cycle and translate layer to create the design and animation of this walking rectangle. It seems walk cycles can also be created without bones, and that the so-called "Moho flow" is practically non-existant.

RASH,
How did you convert Moho's output to an animated gif?

Stephen

"Nobudget has had the best advice."

Most intelligent remark in this whole thread

To add an example to Kdiddy13's well written post:
Final Fantasy = Almost Realistic = Not Good
Polar Express = Almost Realistic = Not Good
Incredibles = Not Realistic = Very Good

You don't have to comment the story of Polar Express moved you emotionally, I'm referring to the scary motion-capture used to make the film.

Reindert.
www.nobudgetvideo.com

PS. "Nobudget has had the best advice."