Moho Forum

nd missing styles keyframe.

Hi. I've been learning anime studio, and am dangerously new to it. This is my first character, and have reached the stage where I'm going to attempt to make some actions to make the character turn. I was using a traditional actions-controlled approach to start off, and shortly into it, I reached my first speed bump, and I can't figure it out. Ugh :P

http://img532.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... tarjc6.flv

After some preliminary testing, for some reason the face puddy and base hair layers weren't moving akin to the rest of the layers. I'm not really sure what this will mean when it doesn't need to travel distance while turning, but I figure them behaving in that manner will lead to problems down the road. I figure interpolation is the cause behind their movements, and I checked all the layers that I'm aware that would effect it, and also within each of the two directions of forward and 3/4th (is that necessary?), and they all appear to be linear in interpolation like I desire. There doesn't seem to be any rogue keyframes in there, but I can't say I'm exactly positive of what I'm looking for other than frames in between the two end states. I'm sorta clueless at this point of what to do about that hehe.

Also of note in that video is a withstanding problem: that I have changed some colors in that .anme as it progresses, but can't find or delete their key frame. I would check these forums about this, but I could never find any conclusion to the problem. My question regarding this is, is there an answer to this problem these days? And is this project repairable, or able to be wiped of those styles changing keyframes? My guess that I was going to try importing it into another scene and hope that it magically fixes it, but i doubt it :P

And thirdly of note, also a withstanding problem, this project has the dynamic bones going haywire when animated problem. To remedy this before, I would either go back to an older version of it which didn't have the problem and start from there, and one time elongating some of the smaller bones solved the problem, which was the only suggestion in these forums that I could find on the matter, other than "bigger projects seem to have this problem". I can't find a thread on this post 2006, does anyone happen to know if there's a solution to this as well these days?


The .anme can be found here. http://rapidshare.com/files/76027690/Va ... .anme.html

I very graciously appreciate any feedback on these matters, and I apologize if I've made these problems seem anymore complicated that they really are, hehe. thanks!

OK, I had a look into your file and immediately put it into isolation onto another harddrive, because I don't want it to infect my own stuff ... *fg*

Way complicated. As you stated, you are just a beginner in AS, and yet you try to reach for the stars already ... From the way you set up the character I assume that you have some experience in 3D, right? The artwork is OK, and it seems that you did everything right with binding and bone offset. But I couldn't check this because there's way too much going on in the same layer.

You have to bear in mind that AS is not a 3D program. AS doesn't have "selection filtering" or fancy stuff like "bones grouping" (besides Vern's newest script). So in order to make your character work, you have to think a bit different.

Every bone you add to a bone layer will make it more difficult to animate different body parts at different speed, because AS's timeline display isn't very sophisticated. From my own experience I recommend to have separate bone layers for each arm, leg, body, and head. This way I maintain control over their movements much easier without the danger of accidentially selecting the wrong bone and ruining a motion I've already created before. Of course it is a bit slower in the making because I have to switch between layers more often.

At least you should get rid of all those hair bones in that layer because they obscure everything else. Hair is secondary motion, and it should be treated that way.

This is no direct answer to your problem, but I just assume that those will not occur again if you re-adjust your setup. At least they will be easier to track down, which is impossible right now, at least for me.

As for the changing colours: take care to select the necessary timelines to be displayed in your "settings" tab.

I'm sorry if this post sounds a bit discouraging, but you've been run too far into the direction you were used to take in other programs. AS is different, it has some flaws, but if you know them you can work with it as well as with any other software.

Cluadia wrote:bones going crazy.

Hi. I've been learning anime studio, and am dangerously new to it. This is my first character, and have reached the stage where I'm going to attempt to make some actions to make the character turn. I was using a traditional actions-controlled approach to start off, and shortly into it, I reached my first speed bump, and I can't figure it out. Ugh

http://img532.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... tarjc6.flv

I'm exactly positive of what I'm looking for other than frames in between the two end states. I'm sorta clueless at this point of what to do about that hehe.

Also of note in that video is a withstanding problem: that I have changed some colors in that .anme as it progresses, but can't find or delete their key frame. to be wiped of those styles changing keyframes? My guess that I was going to try importing it into another scene and hope that it magically fixes it, but i doubt it

And thirdly of note, also a withstanding problem, this project has the dynamic bones going haywire when animated problem. To remedy this before, I would either go back to an older version of it which didn't have the problem and start from there, and one time elongating some of the smaller bones solved the problem, which was the only suggestion in these forums that I could find on the matter, other than "bigger projects seem to have this problem". I can't find a thread on this post 2006, does anyone happen to know if there's a solution to this as well these days?


The .anme can be found here. http://rapidshare.com/files/76027690/Va ... .anme.html

I very graciously appreciate any feedback on these matters, and I apologize if I've made these problems seem anymore complicated that they really are, hehe. thanks!

WOW! Cluadia did you make that figure or buy it?
Valeri is some bit of work. I downloaded the file and have been looking through it. I even did a short animation with her. See Movie here...


As you see I had the same problems you described above. Hair is erratic etc. etc. I found that after frame 85 the skin color changed to blue.
Looking at your styles palate I see the style choices changed at frame 85.
That may be the color change you mentioned.
Also as I tried to render the animation I made (48 frames total) it locked Anime Studio up. I then broke it down to render 12 frames at a time and
spliced them into all 48 frames. Thus the short clip I posted.
As slowtiger stated "Way complicated!"

However, I'm not much of a "bone" person and so I learned a few things from your file. I now know that to (hide controlled bones)
allows me to only see and move the basic bone structure. All the hair bones were hidden from view. Hmm, I wonder if the hair strips were
further apart in the initial set up would tame the hair down. Don't really know. Just a thought.

Which brings up a point. This simple head turn is, just that, SIMPLE.
I have yet to see anything as easy and simple made to look like a character that might be used in an animation.
I mean. what happens when the figure starts taking on color
and shading such as is displayed in a figure like Valeri?

This is probably a question for another thread. But I have followed the head turn thread and watched all the excitement going on.
And now I see this sample of an elaborate figure and it doesn't work.
Will that happen if you put skin and shading on this figure? Or, perhaps a body.

Wow, first of all, I never expected such in depth replies, that's awesome, thanks :D
I'm anticipating this reply to be a too long didn't read, so I'm sectioning off the two responses.

In regards to how the character is built:
There are a few constrained bones on the character in the arms, but they are primarily there for test reasons. The character's hair is controlled with dynamic bones, and the ears / earing / boobs (lol) are controlled with a minor level setting of dynamic bones. I guess the rest of the project is pretty self explanatory, it's a face forward view only, with construction started on the 3/4 right view. In the main time line is a face forward key frame at 0, and the current 3/4 progress at 30. If there's any confusion, just ask,, but I'd like to get a much less unnecessarily complicated version out there by the time I ask more questions :P

The amount of layers is a bit much. I remember the project screwing up somewhere along the line, happening when I would make a new layer. (possibly with the bones going haywire problem, but it's been a while and I can't remember exactly what the problem was), so the only way to make a new layer without problems was by cloning an old layer and deleting the contents.

In response to Slowtiger's words
I have a somewhere around intermediate (no clue really) background in 3d, and also do lotsa work on flash. You were correct, good eyes.

Every bone you add to a bone layer will make it more difficult to animate different body parts at different speed, because AS's time line display isn't very sophisticated. From my own experience I recommend to have separate bone layers for each arm, leg, body, and head.

This makes a lot of sense. During some animation experiments, I noticed how key frames seemed to be shared between bones, and found myself putting separate bone movements on different frames to distinguish them them. I think I would need to pair my working on this with a guide sheet logging what key frame is what. Now I'm not exactly sure if this is what you mean by less sophisticated in the time frame area, but this is what I took from it hehe. I think that's an awesome idea to split up body parts into segments, and that will be my first plan of action to prevent the hassles down the road. Not only will that make things a little clearer, I wonder if that will rescue this project from the dynamics going haywire problem (Which my guess is that the program is having a problem with the amount of bones in it that have dynamics). Vern's bone grouping tool I'm haven't a bit of trouble understanding the functionality for at my current level of anime studio proficiency (and possible also 3d animation proficiency), and I imagine some day down the road I'll be checking it out.
I don't have access to the program at the moment to test and see if a simple creature with dynamics within the same project with a separate bone structure will also go haywire (suggesting there is a project limit I should take into consideration when designing), but that's also something I'm interested in while learning the limits of this program. (And I'm also wondering if it's not a project total of dynamics, but a level which you can't pass per since bone structure which will cause the rest of the models to behave in this way). I wish I knew more about this. I'll provide all I know about it summed up at the bottom of this reply. It's really, really really hard to resist not making simple projects, and I'm searching for the limits :D

So my first course of action will be to separate the bone layers into body part sections, mostly likely in the manner which you described.
If the dynamics problem persists, from that point, I'll nuke a ton of the hair bones and hope for the best :P Really, having them separated in layers by strands would mean the only amount of work would be a magnet tool, and a sense of direction, so.. It's just being lazy really. And I'm having a bit of a hard time grasping the concept of what happens when you have a dynamic bones layer, and rotate the character; so figured I wouldn't think about it, and will just try it and learn from there.

As for the changing colours: take care to select the necessary time lines to be displayed in your "settings" tab.

I apologize as I don't have access to the program at the moment to double check, but I remember not seeing anything having to do with styles in any of the time line settings options. It's good to know this will be curable once I have the information on where to find it :)

To close, thanks again for the time you put fourth in responding, you've given a lot of advice and wise words about what I can change, and how I should approach learning this program. It's not discouraging in the learning department, I'd be lying if I didn't think I was over my head learning via this project, and turned a blind eye at the warning signals. Whether that means I have a little or a lot of work in store for me get back on track, we'll see :P
I don't plan to do anything amazing with this program, and it seems like it can do what I want if I keep up at learning it. The headaches this gives pale in comparison to learning the ways and flaws of 3ds max :D

OK, I had a look into your file and immediately put it into isolation onto another harddrive, because I don't want it to infect my own stuff ... *fg*

I'd also be lying if I were to say that I understood fully what you meant by this hehe. If this was important, do clarify, as I've taken it as a friendly jab at the monstrous level of bones and layers in it :P

In response to Rplate's words

And thank you too for the in depth response :P I did spend a bit of time drawing it, the shadow/distance layers are incredibly boring to do (as seen in this version cheating with the rear hair strands not having an actual shadow layer), but they seemed worth it in the end for a more appealing render. But it results in double the layers, and that's something I'm kind of concerned about :P

As you see I had the same problems you described above. Hair is erratic etc. etc. I found that after frame 85 the skin color changed to blue.
Looking at your styles palate I see the style choices changed at frame 85.
That may be the color change you mentioned.

That's awesome that you rendered out a test, clear to see that yeah, it doesn't magically work on someone else's AS. And also creates a little pride seeing someone else working on a val :P
My current only idea of how to make the skin not turn blue there is to copy the color # of the first frame into that one. Only problem with that is that it's simply covering up the problem, and if i ever want to edit the first color, I'll have to do that for every time I made a color or style change during the movie. Do you happen to know if there is a better solution? Like being able to delete that "key frame" all together? I have no clue hehe. Styles don't appear to be selectable to toggle in the key frame settings window.

It's weird to hear that there's enough in it to lock it up on rendering for you. The computer I use to render isn't all that hot, so I must not be too far away if the reason for it locking up is a complexity issue. I was hoping on making a scene, with another scene reflective layer or shadows and highlights, and I'm pretty worried about the reality of whether that's even technically possible or not or if there will be lock up problems :P Pending it is ineed complexity reasons for locking up, that's good info in that I should perform some stress tests to see how much room I have before slaving away on details that wouldn't ever be able to be rendered.

(hide controlled bones)

I had absolutely no idea about this despite it blatantly being in the bone menu! I did some research on it, and it doesn't seem to magically speed up the view frame update speed by much as I am accustomed to in other programs, but it does indeed make things much more cleaner while working. Thanks!

Hmm, I wonder if the hair strips were
further apart in the initial set up would tame the hair down. Don't really know. Just a thought.

I will try that when I get back into school Monday. Basing on how last time, simply making one of the smaller dynamic bones in the hair longer solved it, I'd definitely say it's worth a try :P

As for the simple 3d head turn, and I thought it was awesome, but I felt that it was either over my level of understanding of the program, or simply you have to constrain your character when your designing it. Either way, I could have given it a lot more tweaking and learning about it, but I basically was just curious to see how it worked, and to get a little background on it if I ever want to use it in the future.

As for skinning and rotation, is that actually possible in this program? In order to make it work, I would believe that there would need to be separate skins for every direction, possibly tweened between the two during anime studios shape tweens.
As for shadows and rotation, it's very new to me, and I'm approaching it with a we'll see what happens outlook. When things rotate, shadows will change, so I wonder how that will look with the end result and the in between.




As for adding the steps that started this dynamics going crazy problem this time.

O Resized the project's size (The last 5 or so times that this has happened and I had to backtrack either within the file or simply starting from a previous save was via a project size change). Basically, everything I do when creating this is weighed on whether it will make dynamic bones go haywire after the projects size changes.

That's all I can remember! Sorry. It's strange how little this is mentioned on the forums, as to suggest people don't normal run into this problem. People who generally know this program well, or start more simply. Hope, I guess :P

Cluadia wrote:In the main time line is a face forward key frame at 0, and the current 3/4 progress at 30. If there's any confusion, just ask,, but I'd like to get a much less unnecessarily complicated version out there by the time I ask more questions

The amount of layers is a bit much.

Cluadia,
Looking at your Valeri character a bit closer, I see that you must have created the original in a vector drawing program and imported the parts as Adobe Illustrator
files and thus a tremendous number of vector points in each part of the character. Perhaps if you traced your character in Anime Studio and reducing the number
of vector points, you may have more success.

.____________.
I exported Valeri as a one frame Flash animation and she was almost unrecognizable due to all the heavy black outlines.
I hate to admit, but with bones, that Simple head above is the way to go. Or, at least somewhere inbetween.

Have you read what you can do and can't do with flash in Anime Studio? -- Anime Studio FlashTips here
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