Moho Forum

I don't mean for this to come across as a flame, or to sound like a troll. I know a lot of you guys have been using this program successfully for a long time, but I wanted to share, more for Mike's benefit than anything, views from a possible new customer and future user of the product given my observations over the last few days.

To start, let me say I have no animation background, and very little drawing experience, so as such I almost feel embarrassed just posting here considering the enormous amount of talent I see on these forums.

I did get a wild hair a while back though about creating animations for fun after seeing Animation Studio at the Apple Store, and the other day I decided to look into it more. Along the way I also learned about Toon Boom Studio 4, and started comparing the two (based on what I'm reading on the web sites and forums, mind you. I haven't downloaded TBS4 demo yet as my initial focus was ASP5). If nothing else I've learned that no matter which product I choose, the learning curve is going to be steep so I want to pick the right product. After all, who knows where I'll go with it?

First thing's first. Let's look at the home page for the company that distributes ASP5:

http://www.smithmicro.com

I have yet to find a direct path from this home page to APS5 without having to use Google. To look at this site you wouldn't even know they deal in graphics, other than the links on the menu which take you to Consumer -> Graphics -> http://www.smithmicro.com/default.tpl?g ... 1=5&id2=79

This really makes me wonder about SM's dedication to this product, and tells me they don't think very highly of it. Hopefully I'm wrong, but that's the impression I get. It seems they're more into mobile communications, and ASP5 is a way to generate extra income.

Next up, these forums. If not for a user on the official forums for this product pointing me over here, I wouldn't have even known these forums existed. And on these forums is where the trouble begins...

It was on these forums that I learned of the 5.6 patch being released, but Smith Micro didn't inform anyone (and from what I can tell on their web site, they still haven't, as there's a link to the new 5.5 update and no mention of 5.6). Members had to learn from other members who just purchased the product that 5.6 was even out, and then it was like a scavenger hunt to find the patch.

And finally, and here's the thing that alarms me most, I read on these forums from a Toon Boom user dated back in Feb of this year that Papagayo (sorry if I spelled it wrong) didn't work on Mac OS X Leapord. I managed to find the Papagayo web site (thanks again Google) to find that version 1.2 was out, and it did indeed support "version 1.4 and higher". Excellent!

Well, turns out, it doesn't, and hasn't, but no one bothered to update the web site to let customers know this.

I go to the forums again and find that there is a Leopard version now available, but it's still buggy, and wasn't made available until 6 months after it was first reported as being a bug on the forums.

So what do Leopard users who have purchased ASP5 over the last 5 or 6 months done about Lip Syncing?

Through my reading I've also learned ASP is developed by one man, someone named Mike. I'm sure he's a great guy and much smarter than I am about such things, but as an outsider, I have to wonder, what happens to ASP or Papayago if heaven forbid anything should happen to Mike? Or if Mike just one day decided he didn't want to work on Papayago any more. Would we be at the mercy of the user community to take up the code where he left off and continue to support the product so we have lip synching? Why isn't such an important tool that's made to work with ASP just be included and supported with ASP?

Lastly, and this is just nitpicking at this point, but I installed the ASP5 demo, and I have to say the interface wasn't very professional looking. At first glance the character that loads when you first load the program looked all pixelated and unlike any vector illustration I've seen, and the UI itself looked kind of out of place on the Mac OS. (Very dated, if you would). They say you never get a second chance to make a first impression, and my first impression wasn't very good. What does the image of the anime guy that first loads when you load the program say about ASP's vector illustration tools? I'm sure there are logical answers to all this, but I'm just sharing my novice first experiences here.

You'll notice I haven't mentioned anything about the features. That's because I haven't gotten that far yet, and not qualified to make such statements. I've seen the work people have done with this program, and read about the bone rigging and morphing capabilities present in ASP5 that are missing in Toon Boom and I have to say it all seems very appealing and I'm really intrigued by it, but I'm having a really hard time with the Smith Micro thing, the web site, the lack of communication, the slow updates to both the papayago program and it's web site in regards to Leopard, etc.

In contrast, when you visit the Toon Boom site, it's very professional. You know when you see the site, this what these guys do. It's all they do. You learn up front that TBS Express doesn't work on Leopard. There's a job search feature on their home page, and supporting apps like StoryBoard tools, and an upgrade path to what I'm certain are very expensive "pro" apps I'll never see or use, but it's nice to know it's there. Then you see the list of names of studios using their products (granted I'm sure they're not the $400 version), and well, you get the idea.

So having said all that, I still must confess, the bone rigging system is very appealing to me, and I've been quite impressed with the results I've seen from the users. The price is right. It's just kind of hard jumping on board considering the current state of the program and it's new owner, SM.

I hope this hasn't come across as me trying to troll anyone. I'm still interested in ASP5, despite the above comments. I'm just having a hard time pushing the button.

What do you guys think about the current shape of things? Does anyone have any insight as to where ASP's headed in the future? What are your concerns if any about SM being the new owners of the product? How has communication been about the product, and upcoming changes in the past? What do we know about version 6, when to expect it, what's going on with it etc now that SM owns the product?

In all honesty, $200 isn't really a big deal. For that matter, neither is $400. It's the amount of time you invest in learning such a tool. I don't want to waste months (or even years) in the wrong camp just to find the tools I've grown to love disappearing on me and I have to start over again with a new tool.

Anyhow, sorry this was so wordy. I hope it's taken for what it's meant to be, constructive criticism from a possible new customer, and not flames from the "other camp".

Thanks for listening.

I can fully understand what you mean. However, I know now that to take full advantage of both Toon Boom Studio and Anime Studio Pro, you will need to be able to draw. If you can't draw the human figure, creating animation is going to be very hard. I know from experience. I have been using Moho since version 5.0, now over two years. And still I haven't created one animation movie, none. I just lack the drawing skills.

As forum members probably know from my earlier posts, I don't like Smith Micro as a software company a bit. So I agree with you on that completely. Luckily, we don't need SM, other than for upgrades. The upgrade from 5.5 to 5.6 was, to say the least, very painful.

Well I probably understated my drawing skills, but only by a little. I took art in high school many years ago, and used to make up comic book characters with my brother. I was really into it in my younger years but I'm severely out of practice. More recently I've done some illustrations in Illustrator and Photoshop. Have a wacom tablet, etc. I'm not an expert by any means, but I have a basic understanding of how to draw the kind of characters I like, and I found drawspace.com recently which I'm having fun reading over now.

I guess I should have said I have no formal training, and I'm badly out of practice, but I'm less concerned about my ability to pick it back up at this point than I am about being able to learn a new animation tool. Old dogs, and such.

More than anything I guess what I was looking for in my original post was peace of mind. After reading your reply, I'm still looking for it.

Let me offer you a slightly different perspective.

First of all, support for an established product like ASP (which is now way down the road in terms of versions) is valued quite a bit differently than for a brand new product. With a product in even release 2.0 I put a great deal more store in how it's supported, who's working on it, etc. To put it another way, do you really care if *anyone* is working on a new version of Word? Most likely not. Similarly, while there are features I'd appreciate if they were added to ASP, it's pretty much at a point where you can do all you want/need to do with it. So actual software development and support become much less of an issue.

I can't speak for OS issues (besides -- why does the Mac have such problems? Everything I see on TV with the guy from Ed is that the Mac *never* has OS problems, that it's only us PC users that have to worry about updating our OS. Frankly, I just use XP and don't worry at all, but if you Mac guys have to worry about stuff not running on your newest OS then I think those commercials are very misleading). But I don't really care if they ever release another version of ASP.

And, as you note, the price ain't a big deal. I've invested thousands (actually, even tens of thousands) in software products that don't even run anymore (some of them are too painful to even talk about). Spending a few hundred dollars and then possibly worrying about the future of the product just strikes me as laughable.

A far bigger issue is the time investment -- if you spend all your time learning a product and then decide to change horses, as it were, then I think you've got a legitimate complaint. However, here ASP shines when compared to the competiion.

Unlike the previous poster, my experience with ASP is that I have been able to produce TONS of animated movies, and I have no talent whatsoever. I currently do a weekly half-hour show (now, it takes two weeks to animate each episode, but we're gearing up for the fall season). It's strictly a one-man shop and I couldn't do it with anything else.

I bought Toon Boom Studio, and I've never even been able to produce one minute of animation from it. Part of the problem is its interface (which I surmise you like better than AS) is so convoluted and involved that mastering it apparently is beyond me (despite my extensive 3D background -- I am truly a master of 3D Max and have done many many animations in that product for nearly 10 years). I *hate* the learning curve for Toon Boom and do feel that you need to know how to draw to use it.

The bones in AS is big, but so is the much easier interface. Toon Boom makes you jump through all kinds of hoops to set up even a simple character (or their manual is just plain wrong-headed -- I haven't decided which it is). If you are going to do 2D animation and you're not an accomplished cell artist then AS is the only way to go -- there isn't even a contest.

Smith Micro is making a horrible mess of things, but just like I think the management of Paramount is awful that doesn't mean I won't patronize their movies. SM owns the resale rights to AS, but that's about as far as it goes. As long as you can get them to take your money (or buy AS in the Apple store, as I did -- even us PC owners can get product there :>) I wouldn't be concerned about it.

The author of AS, Mike, seems like a standup guy to me. But more importantly, he has created a product that's fantastic and does what I need it to do. If you can get the demo to work for you you'll see the same thing. There's not really anything else to worry about.

I have both TB and AS pro.

If can draw, and draw very fast, TB is the program to have. It has the tools for those who have been doing animation one frame at a time.

If you can't draw or are very slow AS is the program to use. The tools on each program are totally different, and should be. They are two completely different approaches to animation.

I had a problem with the updated version not accepting my new serial number. SM support was as helpful as they could be. My one computer was the problem not the program or the number. I had to put the update on another computer than transfer the license copy to my computer that I do most of my animation.

The person doing the web pages are not the same who are customer support.

Dale

mkelley wrote:To put it another way, do you really care if *anyone* is working on a new version of Word? Most likely not. ... But I don't really care if they ever release another version of ASP.

Well, I guess this could be said for Windows 3.1 back in the early 90's too. But yeah, I do care if a product is actively being enhanced with new features, updated to work on new versions of OS's that come out, etc. Once development stops being enhanced and updated, it's dead.

besides -- why does the Mac have such problems? Everything I see on TV with the guy from Ed is that the Mac *never* has OS problems, that it's only us PC users that have to worry about updating our OS. Frankly, I just use XP and don't worry at all, but if you Mac guys have to worry about stuff not running on your newest OS then I think those commercials are very misleading)

I don't have problems on my Mac. Everything I ran in the past still works, as do my new programs. Papagayo would be the exception. I installed 1.2, and it didn't work. Needless to say, if the lip sync tool for the program hasn't been fixed in 6 months, and the web site hasn't been updated to let people know that it doesn't work (it says it does), I'm failing to see how you don't see this as a problem. That's about as unprofessional as it gets, and if I had purchased ASP5 3 months ago and had to go 3 months without lip syncing abilities and the web site still told me it was working when it clearly doesn't, I'd be pretty irate. This isn't an SM problem, as SM doesn't have anything to do with it (which is another concern in itself).

What happens if a new service pack comes out for Windows and Papagayo doesn't work with it, and you have to wait 6 months for an update? Would you be so forgiving then?

There were a lot more products that broke when Vista came out that still haven't been fixed. This is the case every time new OS's come out, and is not specific to Apple. You've taken a legitimate concern about the product we're discussing and a very real concern over the communications about the product and turned into a Mac rant. But this wasn't a Mac vs Windows thread...

I currently do a weekly half-hour show (now, it takes two weeks to animate each episode, but we're gearing up for the fall season). It's strictly a one-man shop and I couldn't do it with anything else.

That is indeed impressive.

Part of the problem is its interface (which I surmise you like better than AS)

Actually, as I mentioned above, I still haven't installed the Toon Boom demo. My comments were aimed squarely at the look of the interface on the Mac. The button, the windows, the widgets, if you will. As I mentioned above, I thought the interface looked dated. Possibly due to the toolset used to create a cross-platform application. It doesn't look very good compared to the native Mac apps. I'm aware this has no effect on the use of the program or the output of the content it generates. I'm just making an observation. It just looks out of place.

Smith Micro is making a horrible mess of things

This is my concern.

The author of AS, Mike, seems like a standup guy to me. But more importantly, he has created a product that's fantastic and does what I need it to do. If you can get the demo to work for you you'll see the same thing. There's not really anything else to worry about.

I'm sure Mike is a great guy. I'm not questioning that. And I'm sure the product is great too, I've seen the results. Neither of these though were a concern I had in the initial post though.

An anecdote if you will. I bought a program back in the 90's called Layout. It was a flowchart application development tool. Unique concept, quick results. I could develop applications with it faster than anything else I had used. I invested a lot of time not only learning this tool, but developing my applications in it.

One day I was promised a free upgrade to the new version. Then a month later, the company was purchased by another company. They refused to honor the free upgrade, but this didn't matter, as they never turned out another version of the product. Eventually they changed direction, dropped the product completely and the version I was using failed to work when Windows 95 shipped. Ultimately I had to switch to another product, learn the new product, and start build my new applications over from the ground up. In the end, my choice to go with Layout was a VERY costly mistake, even though the initial price of the program was a couple hundred bucks.

Sound familiar?

So yes, I have big concerns when a program that is that time consuming to learn and in a way, ties you into a certain way of doing things, gets bought out by a company that shows a mediocre interest in the product. And yes, constant development is important. You never know with OS updates when the program will fail to stop working. Or when a new feature will be introduced by a 3rd party that pops up out of no where and everyone wants that feature added to their favorite tools.

Hope this clarifies my concerns. Thanks for the feedback, and congrats on your success with the program. I hope I can reach a similar level of competency with it should I choose to go with ASP5 (which in all honesty, I'm leaning towards due to the features).

Cheers.

Your desire to create animation shouldn't depend on any one product.

In fact, you could also consider buying iStopMotion by Boinx Software. You can create stopmotion, using clay models and is a wonderful learning tool. You just need a separate digital video camera to input the stills into your Mac.

I too totally understand your hesitation. Smith Micro have done nothing so far to show they either understand Anime Studio or even care about the product and it's users. However, it is early days and things could improve. If it was just down to learning curve and enjoyment and ease of use of the product I think AS would win hands down. Personally I love the interface but I understand that's just personal preference.

The frustrating thing is that I'm convinced AS could be the tool of choice for professionals too if it was only marketed correctly. Just before the studio I worked for was taken over and subsequently closed down we were testing 3 2D animation software products. The studio had a character they wanted to create in 2D. Two colleagues and I set about getting the character ready for animation in AS. We had a fully rigged and tested character in a single afternoon. Admittedly we all had a little experience with AS but not a great deal at that point. Another couple of animators were working with the other two software packages and after a week hadn't managed to get this character in any form suitable to be animated.

ToonBoom was one of the aforementioned packages and the rep who arrived with the software was very confident he could recreate and rig the character during the day. He was well aware of Anime Studio (Moho) as he insisted on calling it :0) ToonBoom (atleast the version we were testing) did have a bone system but we all found it very difficult to use. It also relied on 'pins' being 'inserted' into various limbs while animating to stop the characters rig from flying all over the place! Needless to say, the rep never managed to get the character animated either. Obviously ToonBoom is capable of fantastic results in the right hands but it certainly wouldn't be my tool of choice based on my experience with it.

In a meeting with ToonBoom via telephone (we are in the UK) to communicate our evaluation of the software any form of criticism was met with the ToonBoom woman practically screaming down the phone in response. I have to say here that I wasn't in the meeting but several people that were all reported the same and suggested that if they had have been considering going for ToonBoom that meeting would have been enough to put them completely off!

These companies must be so relieved that a company like Smith Micro (atleast it appears that way from evidence so far) have picked up Anime Studio. I do hope Smith Micro read your post as it perfectly illustrates the effect their sloppy handling of the situation is having.

Back to AS... I was involved in a TV commercial recently that used AS exclusively. My part of the animation was completed in two evenings. If I can I will post the ad here. The producer did promise to post it here but I haven't seen it as yet. I will prod him again

Zon,

I think we have completely different experiences when it comes to OS here.

I've gotten to the point where I don't fix things that aren't broken. I used NT long after XP was introduced because it weren't broken. When we finally switched to XP it was only after we were sure all the issues (including what would and wouldn't run on it, both hardware and software) were resolved, but if XP didn't work for me I'd still be using it to do the job. I have no doubt whatsoever I'll be running XP for at least another 10 years (during which time I'll have produced a heck of a lot of animation shows).

Now, that doesn't mean I might not buy another computer, but the four machines I have are working just fine. I have no need for more speed (for a 2D program speed isn't the issue) nor memory nor computing power for AS.

The source for Papagayo, AFAIK, is open and available to anyone who wants to develop it. You keep focusing on it but it's not sold by SM, it's not ASP and not required to do lip sync in ASP. It happens to be a convenient tool for doing so, but because the file produced is just a text file you could actually run it on almost anything and use the file produced on your ASP machine. You could pick up a $200 machine to do just that (now, I'm strictly speaking PC world -- I have no idea what Macs cost but always was under the impression they were more expensive).

Indeed, you could even use a program like Magpie (or write your own, or use the Papagayo source, or whatever) and come up with a lip sync text file suitable to use in ASP. I've toyed with doing this myself for expression reading (Papagayo is pretty nice and easy when it comes to lip sync, but if it had the ability to program in expressions it would be tremendous -- I may very well write this in a version for me).

I'm not trying to convince you or to sell you on AS. I could care less if you use it. I just want you to know what works for some people. And it works just fine for me. As someone who's tried every alternative there is, I definitely understand the pros and cons of AS (and, as I said, I think I'm in a unique position to judge, as I have no talent and yet, as someone said last night when they watched the pilot episode, I can produce animation that could be shown on the Fox network).

mkelly,

I think you missed my point. My point was never about operating systems. It was about my observations of things from a possible buyer's perspective.

Sure, I could hold off upgrading my system for 10 years. I'm sure I'd be having a blast today if I'd only stayed on Windows 98. Sure I could buy a $200 computer just for the purpose of running a 3rd party lip synching program. None of this however addresses my concerns in the original post, nor are they very appealing options.

I wasn't trying to incite a defense of the product. Like I've said several times I'm sure it's great. I've seen the results. I've read the testimonies. It wasn't about the product itself, it was about the company behind it.

My concern was about SM now owning the product and how that was going to impact the future of the product, and on this front, no one's done anything to reassure a possible buyer that they're not making a mistake. I've listed a few examples, which I'm not going to repeat because they're already listed above. My OS has nothing to do with it.

All I'm hearing is how horrible SM is, and that's not very reassuring.

Edit: Btw, for what it's worth. I have several computers. One of which is a very current mac, the other is a very current windows system. Getting the program to run isn't a problem. I -could- just use the windows system, though I prefer not to. Or for that matter, I could run windows natively on my Mac since it's intel based. The fact is, I choose to run Mac because in my opinion, it's superior to Windows, for reasons I won't go into because it's just an opinion and it doesn't matter. I also choose to run 10.5 because I LOVE Spaces. It alone was worth the upgrade IMO.

None of this matters though. I was simply illustrating things about my shopping experience, etc that stood out to me as unprofessional and concerning. Nothing more.

Well, it's always interesting to learn about the impressions of someone from "outside", because we here in the forum tend to act a bit like a family sometimes.

Your observations where overall correct, expecially about the shitty website, the bad marketing, and missing information. The startup file is bad, that's why all of us have removed it as soon as possible.

But I think you make those things much more important as they are.

1. I don't care about marketing - I have bought the software already.

2. I do care about how good the support is. I'm willing to give Smith-Micro some leeway with this - which means, I expect them to improve. This includes better information about updates, an easier to find website for purchase, and an improved manual.

3. The future of a software doesn't interest me much. It works as it is, it would be nice to get some more features, but that's it. If Smith-Micro decides to discontinue AS, so be it - my copy will work as long as my Macs do. I use software which is 10 years old because there is no better alternative for me - stuff like Streamline, Fontographer, Elastic Reaity. If that means I have to fire up my old G3 with Mac OS 9, I do it.

4. You can't know many interfaces of professional software, or otherwise you wouldn't think of AS' interface as bad. Trust me: all "professional" 3D packages are usability nightmares. I even suspect that a certain level of complexity doesn't go well together with a user-friendly interface. I can think of many ways to improve AS - but I'd like to improve Photoshop as well.

5. I'm working professionally in animation, and AS isn't my only software. If I have to choose which software to use for a project, I don't care about any of the points you mentioned. I only care about getting the result I want. AS is good enough to let me finish 5 minutes of TV animation in 10 days. Not bad for a software under 200$ !

6. Automated lipsync isn't that important not for me, and not for good animation in general. If you produce a series which mostly consists of talking heads, then it's a real time-saver. My work concentrates on body movement. The dialogue has only roughly to be met by mouth positions because the final episode will be dubbed in several languages anyway. And I've got very fast in assigning mouth positions by hand.

slowtiger wrote:4. You can't know many interfaces of professional software, or otherwise you wouldn't think of AS' interface as bad. Trust me: all "professional" 3D packages are usability nightmares.

Well like I said, I was talking about the widgets (button types, window boxes, and the like) not the usability of the program or how it's laid out. The GUI itself. It's not what you'd expect from a modern Mac application. I've not used any 3D applications, you're correct here, but I have used my share of "professional" programs, and there's a big difference between something like this:

http://www.applesource.com.au/i/story_m ... enshot.jpg

and something like this:

http://mac.softpedia.com/screenshots/19-871_1.png

ASP5 on the Mac reminds me of the pre gnome / kde days on linux. I actually think it looks a lot better on Windows. But like I said, it's just nit-picking. I was sharing my initial impression.

I would like to thank you and everyone else for their feedback. It's good to see a community of people that love the program, even if they don't love the company selling it. It would be nice in an ideal world to have confidence in both in the same time, but I guess in this situation, given the choices available that's just not an option.

I look forward to seeing those videos AmigaMan.

When I bought Moho... there was no "company" behind it... no marketing... the LM site was it. There was one guy working on it. There was only one forum.

EVERYTHING CHANGES. Remember that. Nothing... NOTHING is guaranteed to last forever (former Freehand expert, former expert with Hypercard. Former expert with Macromedia Director... the list goes on)

If AS works for you then use it. If ToonBoom works... use that... use them both! If some open source program with NO support or company investing in it works for you use that!

I've changed 3D software at least 3 times in my life. From Strata to Ray Dream Studio, to Animation Master. Strata was too expensive (I used Strata at work and needed something for home use). Ray Dream eventually got bought out and the price went up and they wouldn't honor my serial number.

Animation Master is great. They are going through a bit of a transitional period at the moment (the owner/creator is running for political office)... but luckily it still works and it's still around. (It's been around longer than ANY other 3D program so that's reassuring.)

Anime Studio is a gold mine for any software company that has two brain cells to rub together. I don't think it will "vanish". I don't care how bad the support is... how awful the web site... if the interface "appears dated" (I don't know what this means... a button is a button)... all the PLUSES far outweigh the problems.

Papagayo is OPEN SOURCE! It is not a paid product. It is FREE... it is a BONUS. No promises were made for it. It is based on open source technology.

You want better lip sync tools? PURCHASE MAGPIE PRO.

If I found ASP now without knowing anything about it's past, and used the Demo... I would buy it as fast as I did when I found Moho. It hasn't changed. Whatever was fantastic about it in the past is still true. The only change has been the EXPECTATIONS of customers. The same program... with even some new features recently (faster than other programs if not as fast as when it was Moho).

You use whatever tool it takes to get the job done. Hobbyist animators take risks when purchasing any software. Pros can write it off as a business expense. You roll the dice and hope the car you bought isn't a lemon. Until there are lemon laws for software that's the risk we take.

p.s. I agree with everything you said The two companies handling AS marketing are absolute MORONS... They are like the idots from the fairy tale who cut open the goose to get all the golden eggs and it died... and there were no eggs. We the customers are "golden eggs". Anime Studio is the goose (Man! that image will give me scary dreams tonight.)

however... it has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the only issues of importance... does Anime Studio do the job? Yes.

-vern

Hear hear, Vern!

ASP is free from the Microsoft Webpage. You can use Microsoft Visual Web Developer (which is free) and go to http://www.asp.net/ for help.

BTW why are you posting here? I thought this was a discussion page for Anime Studio Pro. I'm guessing you want to make a cool display page for your Animation. I guess ASP can be used for that.

Well Anime Studio Pro seems to be a great tool for creating Anime. It is also relatively easy to learn unlike ASP.