3 questions

Konservburk · Post by **Konservburk** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 6:27 pm

Hello everyone!

I have used ASP for a while now, and I thinks it's a very good software.
I have succeed to do some really cool things in it, however I'm still learning this, and I have some questions I would like to clear up which I think is/may be pretty important to know about.

I'm very thankful for answers.

Question 1:
A layer icon looks like this:

, but sometimes there is a dot in it:

What does that mean?

Question 2:
What is actions? I would be happy if you just could give me a insight what it is about (or if you would like to explain it more detailed, or link to a tutorial).

Question 3:
Ok, I have made a guy with bones and everything, and I want him to hold this ball:

But then it will look like this:

Or this:

It's because the guy-group layer and the ball layer comes behind/in front of eachother, but I would of course want the ball to be between his hands.

My layers looks like this, and then you understand why I get this problem:

However, a solution I could do is to put the ball layer inside the guy-group between the arm layers, like this:

BUT... I don't want to do that, I prefer the ball to be in an own group, also I don't want the ball to be linked to the guy bones.

Is there another way to do this in? I'm very thankful for tips and help!

slowtiger · Post by **slowtiger** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 6:47 pm

3: Duplicate the ball layer. Put one ball between the guy's hands, the other outside of the guy group layer. Set the second one to invisible. In the frame where he throws the ball switch visibility: the ball layer inside the guy's hands gets invisible, the free one visible now.

It helps to bind the ball layer to one of the guy's hands.

Konservburk · Post by **Konservburk** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 8:16 pm

Ok.
I think that's a kind of a "complicated" way, I would like a tool that you can easily and fast decide what layers should be shown in front of / behind eachother, in specific keyframes, without putting them in order.

Are there parhaps any plugins (scrips) for that?

But your way is however a smart way to solve this in, thanks for your time.

mkelley · Post by **mkelley** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:04 pm

I'm not so sure how much simpler you could want it - you go to the keyframe you want and just arrange the order of the layers. Version 5.6 will then keyframe that order change.

No plugin could make this any easier - but if you have some specific idea on how you want it to work you could always request it as a new feature (but just saying "easier" doesn't do it -- you need to say *exactly* how the feature should work).

Konservburk · Post by **Konservburk** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:28 pm

mkelley wrote:I'm not so sure how much simpler you could want it - you go to the keyframe you want and just arrange the order of the layers. Version 5.6 will then keyframe that order change.

ASP does not animate layer order if you move them outside from groups, or into groups. It only works inside them.

So still, I evidently need to copy the ball into two layers, one inside the character group, and one outside - if I want the ball seperate but still will be shown between the hands.

slowtiger · Post by **slowtiger** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:42 pm

You have to free your mind from the common set of "one object should be all I need". It's not how many objects you create or whatever setup seems to be complicated. It only counts what's visible in the result.

(A good introduction into that thinking is Francois Truffaut's book "Hitchcock" where the grand master reveals a lot of the odd details behind the scenes which were necessary to create the illusion he wanted.)

Konservburk · Post by **Konservburk** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 9:53 pm

slowtiger wrote:You have to free your mind from the common set of "one object should be all I need". It's not how many objects you create or whatever setup seems to be complicated. It only counts what's visible in the result.

I'm not into that technique, well I guess I must get used to it

However, maybe Deph Sort could save me here.. to a certain extent. But I think it's kind of buggy (doesn't work all the time), or maybe I just haven't understanded how Deph Sort works to 100%.

slowtiger · Post by **slowtiger** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 10:35 pm

Depth sort: everything inside a group or bone layer can be sorted to appear on top or bottom of any other. The keys will appear on the group or bone layer timeline.

synthsin75 · Post by **synthsin75** » Sat Apr 25, 2009 10:43 pm

1. The red dot means that a layer is still optimized for swf export. While you can export non-optimized layers to swf, some effects will not be used and it won't be optimized for file size.

From the user's manual:
http://www.lostmarble.com/moho/manual/flashtips.html

2. Also from the manual (Help>Help...):
http://www.lostmarble.com/moho/manual/t ... index.html

Also check out this tutorial that uses actions.
viewtopic.php?t=8867

3.

I'm not into that technique, well I guess I must get used to it

This isn't 3D, where objects are always singular. 2D has always been about creating the illusion of depth, 3D, and even motion. If you've never worked in 2D, find some references on 2D techniques.

If you still think that swapping the visibilities of two different ball layers (or even more if someone needs to then catch it also) slows down your animating, then I'd suggest learning to use actions very well. Then you can assign an action for "guy with ball" or whatever.

There are other possible solutions, but you do really need to learn this kind of method for general use.

Konservburk · Post by **Konservburk** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:15 am

slowtiger wrote:Depth sort: everything inside a group or bone layer can be sorted to appear on top or bottom of any other. The keys will appear on the group or bone layer timeline.

I will take my time sometime and search through forums and tutorials about how using it correctly.

synthsin75 wrote:1. The red dot means that a layer is still optimized for swf export. While you can export non-optimized layers to swf, some effects will not be used and it won't be optimized for file size.

Ok.
For test, I made a quick layer in a new scene in ASP, and it had a dot. But when I animated it (just moved the layer a bit) the dot dissapeared.
I don't understand that, is a simple animation like that not optimized for .swf?

synthsin75 wrote:2. Also from the manual (Help>Help...):
http://www.lostmarble.com/moho/manual/t ... index.html

Also check out this tutorial that uses actions.
viewtopic.php?t=8867

Niiiice.. I tested actions with help of the tutorial, it's a very good tool!
And nice head-turn tutorial, that is something I will do in my videos

synthsin75 wrote:This isn't 3D, where objects are always singular. 2D has always been about creating the illusion of depth, 3D, and even motion. If you've never worked in 2D, find some references on 2D techniques.

I think ASP should be more like 3D but you work in 2D (it is like that a bit in Deph Sort, but as I said I find it kinda buggy/complicated, some layers are still visible though it is behind another layer).

But yeah, I have to get used to this 2D technique, I just have to learn everything.

synthsin75 wrote:If you still think that swapping the visibilities of two different ball layers (or even more if someone needs to then catch it also) slows down your animating, then I'd suggest learning to use actions very well. Then you can assign an action for "guy with ball" or whatever.

I will have a closer look into actions and see what I can do with it later when time allows me, thanks for your tip.

synthsin75 wrote:There are other possible solutions, but you do really need to learn this kind of method for general use.

Ye.

chucky · Post by **chucky** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 11:36 am

Hey Konservburk,
I saw your post and I feel compelled to suggest that you reduce the size of those hands a little.
They is creepin' me out dude!

Good luck with the learning curve BTW.

synthsin75 · Post by **synthsin75** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 5:08 pm

I don't understand that, is a simple animation like that not optimized for .swf?

Check out the flash tips in that link to the user's manual I gave you above. It tells you what does and doesn't work. This says the layer translate, rotate, and scale will export, but 3D translations won't. Read up.

I think ASP should be more like 3D but you work in 2D (it is like that a bit in Deph Sort, but as I said I find it kinda buggy/complicated, some layers are still visible though it is behind another layer).

ASP is as much like 3D as 2D can get. If you want anything more, you'll have to do a "toon render" from an actual 3D app. Depth Sort can't be used with animated layer ordering. It's a one or the other proposition. Depth sort is also covered in that head turn tutorial.

ruibjr · Post by **ruibjr** » Sun Apr 26, 2009 5:35 pm

Here's what I would do: animate the left arm as a separate object.
That's how I would have to do it in paper.
So, I would have 3 "characters" in the scene:

1. The man
2. the ball
3. the left arm

(listed in front-to-back order).

Konservburk · Post by **Konservburk** » Fri May 01, 2009 11:53 am

chucky wrote:Hey Konservburk,
I saw your post and I feel compelled to suggest that you reduce the size of those hands a little.
They is creepin' me out dude!

I noticed it too (even before you pointed it out), but since this was mostly a test it doesn't matter, I'm not going to use him in a real video

synthsin75 wrote:Check out the flash tips in that link to the user's manual I gave you above. It tells you what does and doesn't work. This says the layer translate, rotate, and scale will export, but 3D translations won't. Read up.

I didn't do any 3D or anything, I just simply moved a 2D layer, the most simple animation ever.
Oh well I'm not going to use flash anyway so it doesn't matter.
(I can have a closer look at this if I would sometime, but thanks for your help so far!)

ruibjr wrote:Here's what I would do: animate the left arm as a separate object.
That's how I would have to do it in paper.
So, I would have 3 "characters" in the scene:

1. The man
2. the ball
3. the left arm

(listed in front-to-back order).

That's a smart idea.
However, it would make it easier if you could connect the seperate left arm with the man (a sort of link tool), so you don't need to drag in both the man and arm if you want to move the man.

Is there a way to do that?

Acochran_89 · Post by **Acochran_89** » Fri May 01, 2009 4:21 pm

yeah by using group layers, but then your ball will be in there too. I suggest 1. Listen to synth and slow, they DO know what they are talking about
2. Go read a book about 2d animation and get over the "I need it to be easier idea", trust me it doesn't work like that
3. Learn how to use masking lol
4. ALWAYS Search the forum for scripts, tutorials, and read the tutorials in the manual BEFORE asking for help, some of the guys/gals on here who know what they're doin get real annoyed with us new people who ask questions before we've learned what we can on our own first. All of your first set of questions could've been answered simply by reading the manual through on your own.

just my two cents

sorry if it sounds harsh in any way