Moho Forum

I'm shopping for a new animation app.

Flash just isn't doing it for me.

I'm trying the demo right now and it seems to work really well, but I've started reading about toonboom and honestly I'm confused.

I know this site is going to be biased, but i was hoping you all could voice reasons why it would work for my needs:

**I want to import animation into a video editing app (Vegas 6) for publication. How do the frame rates work with moho to keep the animation looking clear (not blurry as flash sometimes can) and proper?


Thanks

Hello Jim,

Is Moho really worth it? Definitely. Is it for you? Maybe, depending on what you want out of an animation program (see below).

jim wrote:Flash just isn't doing it for me.

Yes, Macromedia has put a lot of effort into interactivity, web features, and ActionScript, but the character animation (niche?) market has been somewhat neglected. All the better for software like Moho specialising in character animation.

jim wrote:I'm trying the demo right now and it seems to work really well, but I've started reading about toonboom and honestly I'm confused.

I know this site is going to be biased, but i was hoping you all could voice reasons why it would work for my needs:

What, us biased? We've almost all come to the calm rational decision that Moho is clearly superior.

Seriously, I think (from what I've read, I've never used it) that ToonBoom is designed to be more akin to traditional animation, with more "re-create your character as you animate". Moho uses bone and point animation (and in later versions, non-linear actions), much more akin to 3D animation (only considerably simpler), more "create your character then animate". Think of Flash's symbol animation and shape tweening the way a character animator really wants them, rather than a web interface designer.
Two different styles of animating, and neither is necessarily superior - it's a personal choice. (I believe ToonBoom's new high-end high-priced Harmony software is also starting down the bones road.)

The only real comparison between ToonBoom and Moho I've seen is Steve Ryan's Animation Tool Showdown, which was posted some time ago (well before Moho 5, I think).

ToonBoom also has trial downloads (Studio, Studio Express) - you may have to try that as well if you think you'd prefer a more traditional animation style.

jim wrote:**I want to import animation into a video editing app (Vegas 6) for publication. How do the frame rates work with moho to keep the animation looking clear (not blurry as flash sometimes can) and proper?

Moho export quality is usually very nice unless you turn off default anti-aliasing (possibly useful for game sprites), use too much compression, or use specific codecs or codec settings that sometimes don't work well with clean animation video because they've been designed for live video.

For instance, if you export to Quicktime you may want to export from Moho using the Animation codec at a lossless 100% quality (you'll get medium large file sizes), and only after post-production in Vegas export to a smaller more compressed codec.

You can set your frame rate in the project settings. If you export from Moho to rendered video rather than SWF, you can use higher reliable framerates, rather than the limited and variable framerates sometimes seen in SWF playback (I'm talking about SWF limitations here, not a problem in Moho SWF export).

Oh, and don't forget to set the Moho project settings to full NTSC or PAL resolution, or whatever format (widescreen? high definition?) you're using. The default settings are 320x240 @ 24fps.

Regards, Myles.

I own ToonBoom AND Moho. ToonBoom is very useful for cinematic flights of fancy, and it's a better choice if you are more used to traditional animation. But once you've tried Moho for a while, it really has so many good things going for it, you won't want to leave.

The best advice is -- try it out. If it doesn't suit you, fine. If it does, you'll find this a very helpful and supportive community.

J

why wouldn't you want your fps to match the video project (the final MPEG-2) you'll be creating?

Oh, and thanks for the speed, indepth response. I'm going to give it a shot and see what happens. I've only finished the first tutorial.

jim wrote:why wouldn't you want your fps to match the video project (the final MPEG-2) you'll be creating?

Depends on style i guess. You want something to look jotly, 12 fps. You want something to look smooth, 30fps (and beyond).

Im also trying to consider where to begin with animation. I'm new to animation.. the only experience is with some keyframing in final cut pro. I do video as a hobby and want to create a jib/jab type video. I have looked into animation master software.. but i htink that is more complex and better for 3-d

cribble wrote:

jim wrote:why wouldn't you want your fps to match the video project (the final MPEG-2) you'll be creating?

Depends on style i guess. You want something to look jotly, 12 fps. You want something to look smooth, 30fps (and beyond).

I guess I'll have to experiment with the different fps settings.

Right now I've been using 30fps for my flash animations and they're almost too smooth during tweening--when I put them onto DVD through Vegas.

My goal is to use them as 'extras' in some video productions I've started to make, but I want to keep them as fluid and true-to-life (you know what i mean) as the cartoons most of us have grown up with.


Also, I like the drawing (WACOM pad) interface from FlashMX, but I couldn't get some [vector] shapes drawn to show smoothly when imported into moho. Am I missing something?

Again, thanks for the healthy response so soon here. Good forum support always scores points when considering a product.


Jim

If you aren't getting smooth points. Then select all the shapes you want smoothed. And then press the M key. The short cut to the smooth tool. (last tool on left hand side in the draw toolset)

Good luck!

Brian

More off-target rambling from me:

jim wrote:why wouldn't you want your fps to match the video project (the final MPEG-2) you'll be creating?

As for setting your framerate in Moho, it's left up to the animator to know what their primary output target will be - web, CD-based multimedia, 24fps film, DVD (25 frame PAL or 30 frame NTSC), video (60-field NTSC or 50-field PAL, both also still used on many DVDs).

If you're referring to what I said about lower and variable framerate SWF format:
Sometimes you would want to animate at the same rate as your video project - but earlier Flash versions couldn't handle it.
Up until about Flash version 5 (I think), Macromedia wouldn't guarantee reliable speed SWF playback would handle anything above something like 12 fps or 15fps (there used to be an official statement somewhere on the Macromedia web site - FAQ section?).
Converting from a default lower framerate Flash SWF file to a higher (30fps) frameraterate video (as opposed to exporting directly to video) could potentially give substandard results. Is that what you were referring to when you spoke of Flash producing blurry video?

Video codecs can also play a large part in reducing the quality (often producing blurriness) of 2D animation, and I believe are the usual culprits rather than framerate.

I believe the Flash framerate situation has been significantly improved over the last couple of Flash releases, but I haven't looked at it again in detail for some time. It's probably no longer an issue. If your primary output was never web-based Flash which you later need to convert to video, it probably was never an issue.

High framerate 2D animation can give you something of a "floaty" underwater look if the action isn't fast and furious - often caused by too many computer-generated in-between frames. Traditional animation is often "shot on twos", working at 24fps with every second frame repeated except for very fast actions - effectively, 12 fps (traditional timing charts often use only the odd-numbered frames in 24fps). Surprisingly, such animation usually looks fluid without being floaty (depending on the effort and skill of the animator/s).

Many animators learn and animate timing at 24fps - it's smooth enough for full cinematic work, and it's easy to divide actions into fractions of a second - you can have standard walk cycles with 12 frames a stride, faster cycles at 8 frames a stride, etc., and a number of published timing tutorials (how fast is a normal blink? what about a sleepy blink?) by professional feature film animators can be used without converting the frame numbers used. You could also animate at 12fps to produce the traditional "shot-on-twos" look.
30fps, by comparison, is a little harder (but not impossible) to plan for - what if you want something to happen 4 times a second?

Your video editor may be able to do 3:2 pull down (repeating fields for every second frame) to convert 24fps to NTSC 60 fields per second. The result is usually fine for TV broadcast quality, although I don't know how well it works for alpha channels and compositing with live action.

Regards, Myles.

jim wrote:Also, I like the drawing (WACOM pad) interface from FlashMX, but I couldn't get some [vector] shapes drawn to show smoothly when imported into moho. Am I missing something?

Could you post some a sample exported AI file? Moho uses mathematically different curves, so Moho import will always be an approximation, but the result can be close enough so as to require only minimal tweaking.

Others here may disagree, but I prefer importing vector artwork only for backgrounds and props, and (re)creating animated characters directly within Moho so you have more control over where points/nodes are created, etc.

Regards, Myles.

DaleG wrote:I have looked into animation master software.. but i htink that is more complex and better for 3-d

Animation:Master is indeed more complex. It's a great program for 3D character animation, but I found myself spending way too much time modeling, rigging (possibly not such a problem these days with the Anzovin Setup Machine for A:M rigging), texturing, and lighting, and not enough time actually animating - possibly my problem rather than the software. However, using mouth poses as an example (the A:M equivalent of Moho's mouth switch layers) you have to spend more time setting each pose up in 3 dimensions, with a more complex wireframe view to manipulate, rather than the simpler and faster Moho 2D setup. You would run into similar issues with any 3D program.

Even with the very nice toon rendering, it often seemed to give that "3D with a toon renderer" look rather than a 2D animation look - possibly due to my lack of skills, and possibly not a problem to some people even when it does look like that.

On the other hand, once you've set up your character once, you don't have to re-draw them for another camera angle.

Animation:Master is a great 3D character animation program, but I'm having a lot more fun with Moho's faster and simpler 2D animation setup.

Regards, Myles.

"want to create a jib/jab type video"

Those are done in Flash but Moho is a lot better for cut-out animation (you are referring to the the photo animations right?). The advantage of Flash using cut-outs is the small file size in the resulting .swf file. Moho's .swf Flash export its too limited. But Moho is perfect for manipulating bitmap images, adding effects and then rendering to a video file. And because of ever increasing bandwidth the larger file size shouldn't be a big problem.

Small recap:
Flash: Small file size, industry standard, interactivity.
ToonBoom: Traditional animation workflow combined with digital advantages.
Moho: Bone animation, particle effects, Z-axis, low price.

Note the unique Moho features are inspired by the 3D animation world. That plays a large part in the power of the program. All three programs have strengths and weaknesses, it's not a case of "best", just better for YOU!

Reindert.
www.nobudgetvideo.com

myles wrote:
High framerate 2D animation can give you something of a "floaty" underwater look if the action isn't fast and furious - often caused by too many computer-generated in-between frames. Traditional animation is often "shot on twos", working at 24fps with every second frame repeated except for very fast actions - effectively, 12 fps (traditional timing charts often use only the odd-numbered frames in 24fps). Surprisingly, such animation usually looks fluid without being floaty (depending on the effort and skill of the animator/s).

In my opinion, you're half right. The frame rate has nothing to do with the "floaty" look. Just as frame rate approaching 60+ frames/sec in computer games or comparing 12 fps film to 60 fields/second video don't either. It's entirely the result of the skills of the animator that dictate whether an animation looks "floaty" or not.

Computer animation often (not always) offers quick results to new animators without them having to "work" for it, or without animation instruction (how animators of the past typically learned). As a result basics of animation like timing, anticipation, squash and stretch, etc. aren't learned or implemented. This leads to characters that drift/float and never seem to make contact or come to rest.
________
Ship Sale

Yeah I think it is................well at least for me it is worth it Ia m doing my major work on it and I am doing fine with it.

High framerate 2D animation can give you something of a "floaty" underwater look if the action isn't fast and furious - often caused by too many computer-generated in-between frames. Traditional animation is often "shot on twos", working at 24fps with every second frame repeated except for very fast actions - effectively, 12 fps (traditional timing charts often use only the odd-numbered frames in 24fps). Surprisingly, such animation usually looks fluid without being floaty (depending on the effort and skill of the animator/s).

Its interesting that Japanese animation is generally at 24 frames per second and is shot in 3s. Many people say that they see a jerkyness to the animation. Really I'd have to disagree I find Japanese animation very fluid and smooth. I've read of various techniques where backgrounds are shot seperately at 3 fps and characters and foreground elements are shot at 2 or 1 fps. Personally I think this CAN create some issues. Anyway I'm babbling:)