Moho Forum

First let me say in my opinion Anime Studio is the best d@mn 2D application on the market. The fact that it's programmed by one man is amazing and the software is wicked. Anime Studio is like a 3D program for 2D artists, IMO.

I get that Flash and Toonboom which both have bones now must have gotten this idea from Mike Clifton's work on ASP. As far as animating 2D cartoons Flash can't touch Anime Studio, IMO, but I have no clue why ASP users insist on comparing Flash to Anime Studio.

Flash is an awesome program and mostly used by web designers. Sure you can make cartoons in it too but it's mainly used for creating Interactive Content. I actually feel sorry for the people who make comments that say "flash is going to be extinct" or "flash isn't as good as ASP" because that's like comparing Maya and Dreamweaver. Two different programs with two different objectives and anyone who makes such a comment just sounds confused.

No offense but when I read stuff like that I just think, "wow, these people just embarrassed themselves because they have no idea what they're talking about."

Flash might fade away one day but right now it is great for if you're a web designer, not 2d animator. I've been using Flash for years, and I agree Anime Studio runs circles around any other program out there if you're trying to make an animated cartoon. But for making Interactive web sites, Motion Graphics for the web and/or video, Dynamic Web Content, Games, Apps, etc. Flash is the BEST I've used. Anime Studio VS. Flash comments are silly because the software objectives are completely different.

Comparing Flash to Anime Studio would be like comparing Final Cut Pro to After Effects. I guess one could compare the two if they were so inclined, since both programs can in theory do the same things but at the end of the day they're entirely different software applications. Final Cut is for editing After Effects is for compositing/motion graphics.

The goal of Most Flash users is to create "INTERACTIVE" content. As far as I know ASP is for making animation and not interactive content for the web. Yes, there are sites like Newgrounds which highlight animated toons done in Flash but that is not why most people who use Flash do with the program. Animating in Flash is really from the old school days like around the early 2000's when it was still owned by Macromedia. Then yes, it was a tool people used to make 2D cartoons and at the time it was revolutionary for some traditional animators in this regard.

ASP is freaking amazing. Mike Clifton is amazing. The fact that Anime Studio is so affordable too (dare, I say under-priced?) just adds to why Anime Studio is sooooooooo Amazing! That said it's pointless to compare Flash to Anime Studio.

I've read this forum before and you guys attack people who make ignorant comments about ASP limits. You all suggests it's the limitations of the person using it and not the software and I say the same to people who compare Flash to ASP. Sorry, if I'm coming across rude in my first post. ASP is my favorite 2D program but I still love Flash and it baffles me that anyone could compare the two. With Flash you have to think outside the box. If you're a color in the lines type of person then it's understandable why the program frustrates you because you're thinking it's only good for one thing, animation.

Well, for us long time Flash users we understand the power and flexibility of Flash and Actionscript and that's why Flash continues to be a mainstay, and it's not so that people can make cartoons either. Go anywhere on the web and you see Flash being utilized. See a banner on a website? Most likely, 99% of the time it was made with Flash or something similar that creates Flash content and more than likely is being displayed with Flash technology. Like watching Youtube videos? Youtube converts all uploads to *.FLV files, which is the extension for Flash Video. Flash is everywhere and just because "Some" people have a harder time making cartoons in it than they do in Anime Studio does not mean Flash is without it's merits.

Ajax and other stuff seems to be taking Flash on as far as loading time for things like galleries, etc. but Flash and Anime Studio cannot and should not be compared.

This is why software reputations get damaged. People who have absolutely no idea what they're talking about make very firm statements as if they're experts on the subject. It runs people away. I've seen Blender users attacking Maya users. Craziness, if you ask me. Yes, Blender is free and Maya is costly, and both have the same objective, unlike Flash and Anime Studio but one is not better than the other. You might just like one more than the other.

Example of what Flash is mainly used for:

http://activeden.net/category/all?sort_ ... all&page=1


You can't do that kind of stuff in ASP so stop comparing them. Yes, this is my first post too. Hello ASP community. I look forward to posting on here more often.

I think flash users are the ones who start the comparison, in my case, many times i go to watch a video on anime studio at youtube and there is a comment like:
"flash is better"

Maybe it's just me, but isn't this suspicious for a first-time poster? Why would your first post on an Anime Studio forum be a lengthy (but not very informative) "comparison" between Flash and AS, ending with a link to a Flash production? Come on out of the shadows!

echa wrote: No offense but when I read stuff like that I just think, "wow, these people just embarrassed themselves because they have no idea what they're talking about."

How ironic.

You make no sense at all and keep contradicting yourself many times. Why did you come to the conclusion that comparing Flash and ASP is like comparing Maya and Dreamweaver? Dreamweaver doesn't create 3d imagery and Maya doesn't create html files. You admit that you can make cartoons in Flash, but apparently that's not enough to compare? Where are you getting the idea that Flash is only used for interactive websites? Obviously a web designer will use it for that purpose, and and animator will use it for animation.

This has to be an April fools joke.

And you have to be an idiot.

Parker, I love your work and I think you're right. But then there are people like...

Jahnocli, No I totally think it's just you. I posted the link to flash so that confused people can see they're both two completely different programs.


Come out of the shadows? Okay? LOL

BOO!


Is that clear enough?

You're right, it was a lengthy post. Maybe I'll start a blog.

But for now, I'll continue to let my wordiness post here. Thanks.

I've read this forum before but never bothered to sign up as I'm sure most people do. I just use the software, check the forum for tips, but never bothered to sign up and comment until the other day. I do recognize some of your names though. Parker = Awesome Background Artist. Selgin = Awesome Animating Tip Genius, Heyvern = Awesome Script Writing Moderator.

I came in with a opinion based on facts even though I'm "new" here and I know "Regulars" don't like that. I understood that my comment would be analyzed and dissected and eventually attacked by the Paranoid Guardians who are suspicious of all "newcomers" and question their motivations. I knew that would happen because as I've said I've read this forum before.

Anyway, when I have the time (I've had very little this week because I am busy finishing up a project) I will come on here and throw in my 2 cents.

If anyone had a problem with my comment, then it must have struck a nerve because I didn't direct that to anyone in particular. It was a general statement.

You're suspicious of me even though I clearly wasn't comparing one or the other rather I was pointing out why others shouldn't bother because it makes them look clueless.

I despise "Software Snobs" and I wanted to state why so many people FAIL when they try to compare different software applications. If that was over your head then I'm sorry.

You don't like my comparisons because you obviously aren't familiar with all those programs. I have used every program I used as an example and they're VASTLY different.

That's why I made the point in saying how ridiculous it is for "Software Snobs" to compare them. I went to school with and now work with and sometimes for Software Snobs or Technique Snobs. I never understand it. To be honest when I see stuff like that I always think those people aren't talented because a true artist can make something with anything.

Parker is a true artist. Look at the amazing backgrounds he makes 100% in Anime Studio. Most people dismissed Anime as just a vector animating program and Parker pushed it to new places and helped to open a lot of people's eyes to what is achievable in Anime. A classic example that it's the artist but the tools that makes things great. Anime however is great and helps artists be able to create their vision in an arena they might not have been able to before. Equipment for 2D animation used to be so expensive! Peg Bars, Cels, Light Tables, and the list goes on and on. There were probably many aspiring animators who didn't bother to entertain the idea because it was so expensive.


cRSP, As for my examples which apparently bothered you when I brought up how silly it is to compare After Effects with a program like Final Cut.

Those weren't examples off the top of my head. I was working on an Indie Feature film a few years ago and I was talking to the director about a shot he wanted done. We were talking about Compositing and I was talking about using After Effects to do a few Effects Shots. Another person on the film interjected and tried to shut me down by saying there isn't anything that someone can do in After Effects that can't be done in Final Cut Pro. While in theory that might be true to some extent e.g. Greenscreen removal, rotoscoping, etc. It still isn't the same as using After Effects. I had a very pointless disagreement with that Final Cut software snob (I use Final Cut too but I'm not dumb enough to think it's the same as AE, Motion, Combustion or Shake when it was still around) and it ended with the director getting confused by the Software Snob's adamant insistence that Final Cut is better than After Effects. Whatever! LOL. How can anyone compare programs that have different purposes? People seem so clueless to me when they do stuff like that. Clearly she didn't know what she was talking about and her ignorance made her feel confident.

The other examples I mentioned have similar stories where I was talking to a confused person. Again, if you couldn't comprehend that, that speaks more about you than it does me.

I agree its an unfair comparision, flash is not specially designed to make 2d animation as AS is but even though when people get interested in animation and want to start digital animation the first think they think is flash just because its very popular along with other adobe products like photoshop and illustrator.
The different is that these last 2 softwares do deserve all that popularity because they are really great.
I can accept that people think that PS is the best at digital painting and illustrator the best at vector work, if not the best at least they are one of the best, but can we accep the idea that flash is the best at 2d animation?

Now way, softwares like AS, Toon Boom and others deserve way more credit and popularity than flash.

crsP wrote:

echa wrote: No offense but when I read stuff like that I just think, "wow, these people just embarrassed themselves because they have no idea what they're talking about."

How ironic.

You make no sense at all and keep contradicting yourself many times. Why did you come to the conclusion that comparing Flash and ASP is like comparing Maya and Dreamweaver? Dreamweaver doesn't create 3d imagery and Maya doesn't create html files. You admit that you can make cartoons in Flash, but apparently that's not enough to compare? Where are you getting the idea that Flash is only used for interactive websites? Obviously a web designer will use it for that purpose, and and animator will use it for animation.

This has to be an April fools joke.

And you have to be an idiot.

It's April 4th now. Is the joke still on you, crisPy?

Crazy Crispy I never said Maya and Dreamweaver were the same.

That was my whole point in using them as examples. Maya is a 3D software and Dreamweaver is for making websites. Get it? Can't be compared because they're two different programs. You Follow? No of course you don't. Btw, Dreamweaver is not just for creating HTML sites...so who's the idiot?

People do make cartoons in Flash. However, most of that is leftover from when Flash was a hot tool in that regard. In the early 2000's Flash was seen as a godsend by some animators. I knew people who went through the whole traditional workflow with pencil tests, cel painting or scanning in to digitally paint (Toonboom was too expensive, new, and difficult for many traditional animators to grasp back then.) and it was a tedious lenghty process until these beautiful 2D programs like Anime studio came along. I've made a few cartoons in Flash myself years ago, and now that I've used Anime Studio I will never willingly do that again. I personally don't think Flash is as fun to animate in as Anime Studio is. I even mentioned how I think ToonBoom and Flash stole the idea for bones from Mike Clifton, but I notice what part of my post you decided to focus on you crispy little devil.

See Crispy, until I wrote that you mostly likely were one of the people I was talking about/to that's why my post bothered you.

Crispy, I think my post was so long it confused you. Flash can be used to make cartoons but what I was saying is that MOST companies and people who use flash don't use it for those purposes. Keyword point being MOST who USE it.

You can point at the few who do as some sort of an example but it doesn't negate the fact that MOST don't use it for those purposes. Now, I'm sorry if that doesn't sit well with you Crispy but that's just the way it is.

PARKER wrote:I agree its an unfair comparision, flash is not specially designed to make 2d animation as AS is but even though when people get interested in animation and want to start digital animation the first think they think is flash just because its very popular along with other adobe products like photoshop and illustrator.
The different is that these last 2 softwares do deserve all that popularity because they are really great.
I can accept that people think that PS is the best at digital painting and illustrator the best at vector work, if not the best at least they are one of the best, but can we accep the idea that flash is the best at 2d animation?

Now way, softwares like AS, Toon Boom and others deserve way more credit and popularity than flash.

I agree. AS kicks Flash @$$ in terms of animating. I never had fun the way I do in AS when I made stuff in Flash. In Flash I was just trying get it done. I actually have fun in AS. I've been fighting the clock all week on a project but it was FUN because I was doing it in Anime Studio. Parker, I'm subscribed to you on youtube. I really like your work.

I have to go but I'll be logging in more often hopefully to comment on other people's post, not just mine.

Good, get ready for the best humor made in AS, Animated Comedy is coming soon

Today I had a felafel for lunch. It was pretty big, I had to save half for when I got home from work.

I went with Marky J Munsterhead. He kept ranting about someone at work, and then apologising. I was like "It's ok dude, let it out."

Anyway I tried animation apps on the ipad but they only let you use your finger and you get sick of them after like an hour. I like the Asus slate with wacom pen, and by like I mean lust. I emailed Chuck about it and he was all "wheeeeeeeeeeeeee..."

Then Chuck said it's a bit small. And he might be right. But it's rad nonetheless.

I made an interactive game on the webs in Flash once, I set it up to draw freehand with a crappy old Wacom Graphire pen tablet. Pffrt. Anyway drawing was fun, animating was hideous, and action scripting was actually more fun than animating. Yes it was that bad.

I made a neato preloader (rermember those? When downloads were so slow you'd have a game to play while you waited for the main event to download?) which let you hit buttons to cue sound sequences, using Swedish death metal band Spawn of Possession. It was satan worshipping finger tapping fun, and I wish I could find a copy to show you guys. WHooee, my animation and heavy metals cred would simultaneously go super-saiyan and I would evolve into the death metal Pokemon: KOFFING

Shirley, you must be MAD!

echa wrote: Crazy Crispy I never said Maya and Dreamweaver were the same.

That was my whole point in using them as examples. Maya is a 3D software and Dreamweaver is for making websites. Get it? Can't be compared because they're two different programs. You Follow? No of course you don't. Btw, Dreamweaver is not just for creating HTML sites...so who's the idiot?

The idiot is still you, worry not for your position.

Firstly where in my post did I claim you said Maya and Dreamweaver were the same. [it's not been edited since posting, so show your evidence, if you insist on 'putting words in my mouth'].

echa wrote:I actually feel sorry for the people who make comments that say "flash is going to be extinct" or "flash isn't as good as ASP" because that's like comparing Maya and Dreamweaver. Two different programs with two different objectives and anyone who makes such a comment just sounds confused.

You are stating here that comparing Flash and ASP is like comparing Maya and Dreamweaver. That is a nonsensical argument, as I have previously rebutted in my last post. Even you, repeatedly say that Flash is capable of producing cartoons [which ASP also is capable], so why can they not be compared? It is easy to make a stupid argument like yours for anything. E.g. ‘You cannot compare apples and oranges, that would be like comparing pancakes and unicorns’. So no one should call me up on that? And ‘comparing apples and oranges’ is an old saying when comparing to different things, but when comparing flavours and nutritional value, they should not be? Of course they can be compared, just as Flash and ASP can be compared in their abilities to make 2d animations. Also you feel sorry for those who make comment like "flash isn't as good as ASP"?



So you feel sorry for Parker [youtube comment]? heh
And you must feel really sorry for yourself:

echa wrote:First let me say in my opinion Anime Studio is the best d@mn 2D application on the market.

echa wrote: As far as animating 2D cartoons Flash can't touch Anime Studio, IMO, but I have no clue why ASP users insist on comparing Flash to Anime Studio.

echa wrote:AS kicks Flash @$$ in terms of animating.

These sums up all your arguments - completely unfocused and contradictory. You will make foolish statements, then immediately put down others who make these type of statements. Your audition for the village idiot is overwhelmingly successful. Do you even bother to read through what you wrote, even one paragraph ago? Yeesh. Much less for other people’s replies. You claim that your example of After Effect and Final Cut ‘bothered’ me, but again, how do you come to that conclusion when I make no mention of either software? Likely because you have no argument, so just more smoke-screening. You fail continuously to read properly what people are telling you. jahnocli’s comment of your ‘lengthy’ comparison is put into context with the ‘but not very informative’ in parenthesis [which is largely ignored by you], has a good point. You rambled on and made no point. You contradict yourself. You keep comparing Flash to ASP, yet state that they shouldn’t be compared?! You simply ignore the ‘but not very informative’, to make out as if the length of your post was the problem. If you could have made a good argument or even anything with interest or humour, the length would not be so much of a problem. But it’s like you came into a room and let out a long, loud fart, and now expect praises. Your argument is so weak, you quote me explaining Dreamweaver and Maya don’t have the remotest of goals, and then go on to say the same thing, but claim I cannot follow that somehow? AND you put in an aside that ‘Dreamweaver is not just for creating HTML sites...so who's the idiot?’ - but please point out where I made the claim that Dreamweaver was limited to creating HTML sites? You went to the trouble of quoting me, but failed to even read the quote properly? I said Maya does not create html, and Dreamweaver does not render 3d images. You quoted me, it’s right there in your post. My post has not been edited. So to answer your question, you are the idiot, quite obviously.

You have no evidence to back up your claims. You seem to favour quantity over quality as your arguments. If you just did yourself a solid and read through what you wrote in your posts, you will see I am correct in all I say about your flimsy argument. jahnocli is correct in that your post is long-winded but is lacking in the area of informative. You claim things like ‘most’ people don’t use Flash for cartoons. Or that ‘most’ companies do not. What a simplistic argument, with no evidence to back up this claim. I sense a pattern. This is the same argument detractors of ASP use - i.e. it’s not professional because ‘most’ companies don’t use it. Your knowledge of this area is so cursory, yet you use it as damning evidence, capitalising to make your flaccid point. The 2d software world is more fragmented than you think. So ‘most’ companies don’t use Flash for cartoons? Simpsons, one of the most popular long-running series uses Toon Booms software. South Park, yet another popular long-running series uses Maya [unconfirmed if they use Dreamweaver...], so that means those are the only way to make a cartoon. Yes indeedy. ‘Most’. You show one example of Flash being used for interactive web work [didn’t check out your link, seems like spam], but you dismiss any potential example of Flash being used for making cartoons? How does your one web-link to rule them all trump any argument that Flash can AND is used to make cartoons? And ‘animating in Flash is from old school days of 2000’?! Where do you get your information? In the 90’s John Kricfalusi was approached by Macromedia to demonstrate the use of flash. Kricfalusi George Liquor Program came out in 1997. What broke in Flash where it can not now create cartoons? Even you admit that your experience with Flash is from ‘years ago’. I too have used Flash, ASP [of course], and TBS. Flash I used when it was Flash MX, and at that time was capable of making cartoons. There has been improvements since. It’s always had better freehand drawing tools than ASP. According to you, Flash can make cartoons [ So can ASP], but Flash can also do interactive wizardry which ASP can’t. Do you not see how convoluted your argument is? You talk about software and technique ‘snobs’, but it is you who is showing the snobbery. Your argument against Flash is, not that it is incapable of helping you make cartoons [you repeatedly state people do use it, and one of those people was you], but that ‘most’ people [i.e. the popular majority] use it for it’s interactive capabilities and not for making cartoons, therefore it should be dismissed, and not even compared to ASP. Ridiculous. Parker uses ASP for backgrounds. I could make up statistics like you and say most people use photoshop for backgrounds. Should he then not use ASP? Can we not compare Photoshop and ASP on their abilities at creating backgrounds? According to your logic, we would be ‘confused’ if we did so. Your snobbery makes you say ASP is the best for 2d animation, but even that is a false statement. So frame by frame, ASP is better than TBS\TBA\Flash? Woah.

Flash and ASP have similar capabilities, and that is why comparisons are drawn. To answer your perplexed thread title.

Thought you would understand that with my succinct first post, but as you only respect length [that’s what she said...] in an argument, I birth this onto the internet.

P.S. I decided against arguing the whole ‘TB \ Adobe copied AS’s bones’ because that argument is reductive in the first place. The concept of bones was around prior to Moho [not that anything should be taken away from Lost Marble for their implementation], and if being first is conclusively superior, then Adobe was demonstrating hard body dynamics in Flash way before they came out in ASP. So not for the insidious reasons you have concocted in your mind.