Moho Forum

Has anyone transitioned from using Toon Boom to using Anime Studio 11? If so, I'd love to know what you think. Advantages, disadvantages (as if there are any ), ease of transition?

Thanks!

I know that Toon Boom have confirmed that Toon Boom Studio, Animate, and Animate Pro are being discontinued.

I also know that there are some Anime Studio users that use Toon Boom products as well, or used to use Toon Boom products before switching to Anime Studio.

I don't know any details behind Toon Boom's business decisions - that's their business. But if they're making customers decide whether they should switch to Harmony, well, why not switch to Anime Studio instead? For anyone that has experience as a user of both products, are there things we could do to help users transition from Toon Boom to Anime Studio?

(Here's the forum thread about Toon Boom Animate's future status. Still supported for now, but the end is coming.)

https://forums.toonboom.com/toon-boom-a ... continuing

I have used both programs. I can say with certainty that Toon Boom's audience are mostly interested in Frame-by-Frame animation. You guys did a fantastic job improving Frame-by-Frame with AS11, but there is still a lot that needs to be addressed if you're going to win over Toon Boom users. Here are a few advantages that Toon Boom has over AS.

1. TOON BOOM SUPPORTS BITMAP DRAWING
Toon Boom supports bitmap drawing, while Anime Studio does not. This is a big deal because a lot of Toon Boom users start off by sketching out keyframes using bitmap layers and then use vector layers to ink them. You should also note that Toon Boom allows users to work with vector and raster layers in the same project, so sometimes we use a vector for line art and then a bitmap for coloring and shading.

This is a very common workflow in Toon Boom and even well known artists like Jazza use it: https://youtu.be/5L2QQj1xmps?t=2m34s

2. TOOM BOOM ALLOWS NATIVE IMPORT OF VECTOR FILES
Here is another HUGE issue. Toon Boom allows users to import adobe illustrator and other vector files and display them with no conversion necessary. This is a big deal because a lot of artists and studios work with resources that they carryover from previous projects or that they paid some studio in Korea to make. These art props and assets often come in the form of adobe illustrator, SWF or SVG format. With Toon Boom, I can import vector files and use them without any trouble, but Anime Studio tries for force the vectors through a badly designed vector converter. The end result either crashes the program or gives terrible converted images, either way it gives an absolutely terrible impression of the program.

My suggested fix for this problem is that you allow SVG, SWF and AI files to be imported and then displayed like image layers without conversion to Anime Studio's point manipulation system. If you guys want to keep bezier curves out of Anime Studio, that's fine ... but you have to find a way to live in harmony with them. Giving users the ability to at least import vectors as image layers is a happy compromise.

3. TOOM BOOM STRESSES WORKING IN THE CANVAS MORE THAN THE LAYERS PANEL
Like Flash, Toon Boom allows users to build symbols. Once a symbol is made, all layers within the symbol are moved around and manipulated together. It is similar to Anime Studio's grouping system, but slightly different.

Anime Studio could EASILY replicate the feel of this kind of system by using GROUP LOCKING. Basically, give the ability to close and LOCK a group layer. When a group layer is locked, the group is interacted with in the canvas FROM the group layer, not the individual layers within that group. For example, if I created a bunch of mouth layers and placed them within a group and locked the group. When I click on the mouth within the canvas, the GROUP that the mouth is a part of it selected instead of the currently active layer. This would allow me to move the mouths around as if they were a Flash or Toon Boom symbol.

You guys could also go the extra mile and create hotkeys that allow the user to dig deeper into their group selection without using the layer panel. For example, if they alt+double click a layer in the canvas they could select into a locked layer. This is like diving into nested symbols which is familiar to Flash and Toon Boom users. You could also add the ability to set certain layers to be unselectable from the canvas. This would be extremely useful for reference layers or layers that the user doesn't want altered.

Yet another feature would be the ability to set the layers panel so that it doesn't auto-expand groups when the user is selecting layers from the canvas. This would be extremely useful for controlling scenes while keeping only the most important layers visible in the layer palette. All of these improvements promote a more natural way of working with the canvas and pushes the user away from the layers panel

If you want more clarification on this, let me know.

4. TOON BOOM HAS A MORE FAMILIAR AND COHERENT TIMELINE
This might not seem like a big deal, but the grid timeline is EXTREMELY important. Every time I show AS to other Toon Boom and Flash users the typical response is that they HATE the look of the timeline. I have to agree with them on this one. The empty space timeline that you guys are rocking is hard to use. For example, when I try to estimate where a keyframe is positioned, I usually have to drag the keyframe marker to that keyframe position because there aren't any guide lines for my eyes to follow. If you guys can revamp the timeline to make it mesh better with Toon Boom and Flash, animators will feel more comfortable with switching over. Also, the new 'pill' looking keyframes are awful! I know that I'm being harsh about this, but no one seems to like them. They're confusing to look at and need to be changed.
http://www.animationmagazine.net/wordpr ... post-1.jpg

5. TOON BOOM HAS A SUPERIOR UI
This one pretty much speaks for itself. Despite all of Anime Studio's improvements, the program still looks bad. I've had other artists seriously laugh and ask me if Anime Studio was freeware because of how bad the UI looks. I'm not saying this to hurt feelings or anything, but you guys are asking for criticism from Toon Boom users and I've never been one to pull punches. You guys need to look at the UI of Toon Boom and Flash and play their game if you want to tap their market.

Great comments about locking folders, etc. dkwroot.

braj wrote:Great comments about locking folders, etc. dkwroot.

I think I can emulate all of this stuff with a script. I'm making my own layer selector tool and it's going to give the user a more Flash/Toon Boom feel.

While dkroot listed some good advantages of Toon Boom over Anime Studio, what he fails to mention is how overly complicated Toon Booms approach is for character animations. Sure there's power in there, but you really have to jump through some hurdles to get at them. The network nodes thingie is a beast to work with, and is necessary in order to do deformations or bones, which in ASP is pretty straight forward and simple.

For FBF I can only recommend TVPaint.

dkwroot wrote:

braj wrote:Great comments about locking folders, etc. dkwroot.

I think I can emulate all of this stuff with a script. I'm making my own layer selector tool and it's going to give the user a more Flash/Toon Boom feel.

Cool, I can't wait!

what he fails to mention

Yeah, what he was mentioning though are the things that make ASP less attractive, which is helpful for Smith Micro to hear. Hearing praises doesn't help them improve the product for that market.

What I imagine kills it for many people straight away when looking into ASP is the rudimentary color chooser. There should be a way to create your own pallets easily beyond loading in a static image.

Thanks for the feedback, dkwroot.

Some of this stuff we know about and would like to improve. Some of it is kind of new. I didn't realize that some people didn't like working with the Layers panel, for example.

As far as the appearance of the UI, can you be specific about what looks bad? I'm not trying to be defensive - I've been working on the program so long that I've probably got the UI burned into my retinas, so it may be hard for me to step back and see it. The Harmony screenshot you linked to certainly looks different, but I'm not sure why one is nicer to look at than the other.

dkwroot wrote:1. TOON BOOM SUPPORTS BITMAP DRAWING
Toon Boom supports bitmap drawing, while Anime Studio does not. This is a big deal because a lot of Toon Boom users start off by sketching out keyframes using bitmap layers and then use vector layers to ink them. You should also note that Toon Boom allows users to work with vector and raster layers in the same project, so sometimes we use a vector for line art and then a bitmap for coloring and shading.

This right here is such a good idea, When I freestyle in fbf, points build and build and build and that's tough on hardware. As Far as I know, bitmapping or whatever doesn't choke your system. We can worry about points when we start inking. That's when we get more crisp and neat with our approach, which means less points, less likelihood for crashing. And all that bitmap as shading. There's just a lot of appeal to this.

Lost Marble wrote:5. TOON BOOM HAS A SUPERIOR UI
This one pretty much speaks for itself. Despite all of Anime Studio's improvements, the program still looks bad. I've had other artists seriously laugh and ask me if Anime Studio was freeware because of how bad the UI looks. I'm not saying this to hurt feelings or anything, but you guys are asking for criticism from Toon Boom users and I've never been one to pull punches. You guys need to look at the UI of Toon Boom and Flash and play their game if you want to tap their market.

I would argue that this is just a matter of personal preference and not really an advantage. When people realize I use AS, they give me so much crap for choosing this over adobe flash. But the reason as far as I can tell is that they've pretty much refined themselves with that program and have become overly attached to it. I'm sure Toonboom's UI would have a similar feel should that same person that was criticizing were using AS instead. The concern would have to revolve around more features and tools to be used. But that's a different subject. The UI as far as I can tell is strictly aesthetic.

slowtiger wrote:For FBF I can only recommend TVPaint.

I've never heard of this. I just looked into it, and yes, it looks awesome and I want it...but..wait there it is...1422 bucks...but yeah...that looks like something worth having.

sargumphigaus wrote:

slowtiger wrote:For FBF I can only recommend TVPaint.

I've never heard of this. I just looked into it, and yes, it looks awesome and I want it...but..wait there it is...1422 bucks...but yeah...that looks like something worth having.

I think that having FBF and vectors all in the same program is what is really attractive to me. And price I don't know if TV Paint does that, but it is what I'm hoping for with ASP as FBF evolves.

Regarding bitmaps, what I think would be a great way to handle getting bitmap painting would be to include a 'freeze' function in FBF layers that would convert all the frames drawn in vectors within a selected FBF folder to bitmaps and disable the original. Right now each FBF frame is a vector file, but if each were a folder instead, you could have multiple frames with different visibility settings in each, instead of creating reference layers to keep everything in sync, you would just have folders within one FBF layer, it seems simpler and much more intuitive to work with IMO. Anyhow, I'm sure FBF will evolve, just using reference layers seems like a work around to a larger design issue, and it is way too easy to get everything out of sync.

^^ OK, maybe I am not thinking that through so well, it seems locking selected reference layer properties might be a simpler solution and something that could be done without adding new layer types and stuff. Just being able to check a box that says 'lock keyframes to original' would be great. Still want the freeze option, but that will work insider a FBF layer already.

Anyone know if they will honor adobe animation software trade in deal? I have a friend that uses after effect, and she was not happy with her purchase of Motion Artist. I been telling her how much different and better she would love ASP.

She had thought that Motion Artist was their introductory animation program. She should have gotten AS debut in hindsight.

sargumphigaus: The standard version of TVPaint is only 570 $, and it's more than worth it.

braj: I like my vectors and bitmaps separate, in a software which is optimized for the purpose. My workflow uses TVP and AS in the same project all the time, they complement each other.

slowtiger wrote:
braj: I like my vectors and bitmaps separate, in a software which is optimized for the purpose.

That's cool, I don't. I would like to see FBF evolve nicely that we can say it is optimized for that purpose, with bitmaps, all in one app. I know that will be a long time coming, but I can dream. I'm poor though, 'Only' $570 is way out of my price range, a hundred or so every year for an upgrade to what I already own is what I need, I'm not a pro though. I understand that isn't what everyone needs.