Layer order is not desired...

[striker2311]

I'm working on a rig i put different layer orders in two different smart bones so when I'm rotating two of them combined they're are not doing their work as desired. Layer order of one is working but other one's not.

So is there some way to fix that??

Please help me!

[Greenlaw]

I don't know what's going on in your project but, FWIW, I'd avoid using Layer Order in a Smart Bone Action because of the potential conflicts that can occur during animation. (i.e., from whenever you need add, delete, or move a layer manually. Trust me, it's a headache to deal with.)

There are a few other ways to deal with this.

1. Use Duplicate or Reference layers placed in the level you want, and then use a Smart Bone Dial to swap the visibility of each layer. This is my preferred method for advanced character setups that will be re-used for multiple animations. This is basically faking layer ordering but it's just as effective.

2. Use the Smart Bone Dial to change the Z-depth of the layers. This is a different way to animate layer order.

BTW, there's a nifty script for doing something this another way...I'll come back with a link in a minute.*

3. Just drag the layer order manually when you need it. This is what I usually do for simple 'one-shot' rigs because it's easy and direct. Sometimes simpler is best, especially when you just want to get the task done and move on to the next thing.

Hope this helps. If you need a specific suggestion, can you post a project that demonstrates the problem?

*Update: Here's the link to Lukas' layer order script: https://www.lostmarble.com/forum/viewto ... 12&t=33324

It's probably not what you want, but it's pretty cool. Basically, the depth is changed as the item is moved up and down the Y-axis. It's a way to animate depth using a fake 'perspective' trick (i.e., anything positioned higher on screen gets moved farther away.)

[striker2311]

I don't know what's going on in your project but, FWIW, I'd avoid using Layer Order in a Smart Bone Action because of the potential conflicts that can occur during animation. (i.e., from whenever you need add, delete, or move a layer manually. Trust me, it's a headache to deal with.)

There are a few other ways to deal with this.

1. Use Duplicate or Reference layers placed in the level you want, and then use a Smart Bone Dial to swap the visibility of each layer. This is my preferred method for advanced character setups that will be re-used for multiple animations. This is basically faking layer ordering but it's just as effective.

2. Use the Smart Bone Dial to change the Z-depth of the layers. This is a different way to animate layer order.

BTW, there's a nifty script for doing something this another way...I'll come back with a link in a minute.*

3. Just drag the layer order manually when you need it. This is what I usually do for simple 'one-shot' rigs because it's easy and direct. Sometimes simpler is best, especially when you just want to get the task done and move on to the next thing.

Hope this helps. If you need a specific suggestion, can you post a project that demonstrates the problem?

*Update: Here's the link to Lukas' layer order script: https://www.lostmarble.com/forum/viewto ... 12&t=33324

It's probably not what you want, but it's pretty cool. Basically, the depth is changed as the item is moved up and down the Y-axis. It's a way to animate depth using a fake 'perspective' trick (i.e., anything higher on screen is farther away.)

Thanks a bunch, Greenlaw, you really are a life saver....
I think I will probably do fine with Lukas script...
Thanks once again.

[Greenlaw]

Sure, glad to help.

A little more info about using the visibility trick: The reason I prefer this method inside a Smart Bone Action is because this method completely avoids the conflict that can arise with Layer Order, but the end result looks exactly the same as using Layer Order.

Note that you can use manual Layer Order animation additionally with the 'visibility SBA' setup, in the event that you need a layer to move up or down one extra level. This can become necessary with some advanced character setups or when special props are involved. When this is a rare one-off situation, manually keyframing Layer Order animation is a quick solution. But of course, if you find yourself doing this often with the same character rig, you may as well create a third copy of the art and add that to the visibilty SBA.

In case you're wondering if it's better to use a Reference or a Duplicate, it depends on how your want edit/update your artwork. If you use a Reference, make sure you change only the original if you want the changes to happen in the references. The catch is that if you change a reference by mistake, the change will only appear in that one Reference. I usually place my art inside a group and use visibility at the group level. This way, if I change the contents of one group, all I need to do is use Copy Layer/Paste Layer to copy the contents of the changed artwork to the other groups. For me, this is more reliable and less susceptible to user error.

[arglborps]

So just to make sure I understand this correctly, let's say for a 'body turn' you'd have a bunch of reference objects for the parts that need to go above or below other objects.

I just assume you'd start with the source layers to be at the lowest possible place in the layer hierarchy, creating reference layers for the cases they need to be on top, and then switching the visibility for those reference layers on an off as needed via a smart bone, and you'd use that smart bone within the the smart action for "body turn", i.e. you wouldn't switch the visibility of the reference layers on and off directly in the smart action for the 'body turn', right?

So it's a similar setup that people use for blinking when the blink smart bone actually only controls the four smart bones for the eye lids, and none of the eye lid layers directly…

Cool, never thought of that.
This way I could probably also fix my rig for my main character, so I'd manually change layer order only in the rare case he needs to grab his gun from the inner pocket of this jacket (put the right hand just below the front left jacket layer).

[striker2311]

Sure, glad to help.

A little more info about using the visibility trick: The reason I prefer this method inside a Smart Bone Action is because this method completely avoids the conflict that can arise with Layer Order, but the end result looks exactly the same as using Layer Order.

Note that you can use manual Layer Order animation additionally with the 'visibility SBA' setup, in the event that you need a layer to move up or down one extra level. This can become necessary with some advanced character setups or when special props are involved. When this is a rare one-off situation, manually keyframing Layer Order animation is a quick solution. But of course, if you find yourself doing this often with the same character rig, you may as well create a third copy of the art and add that to the visibilty SBA.

In case you're wondering if it's better to use a Reference or a Duplicate, it depends on how your want edit/update your artwork. If you use a Reference, make sure you change only the original if you want the changes to happen in the references. The catch is that if you change a reference by mistake, the change will only appear in that one Reference. I usually place my art inside a group and use visibility at the group level. This way, if I change the contents of one group, all I need to do is use Copy Layer/Paste Layer to copy the contents of the changed artwork to the other groups. For me, this is more reliable and less susceptible to user error.

The thing is that i have 4gb ram i3 computer so if i go for making refrence layers and use their visibility for later ordering them it might make my rig file big and will make computer slow for animating.

So i think i can go with Lukas script for time being...
That will work fine right?

[Greenlaw]

So i think i can go with Lukas script for time being...
That will work fine right?

It depends on what you're trying to do. Lukas' script uses the Y-position of the item to determine its depth. It's a fairly specific use and if that's what you need, then it can be very useful. (See his demonstrations in the thread linked above.)

If it's for something really simple though, like making a dog run circles around a tree (i.e., back to front to back...), then manually keyframing Layer Order is probably all you need.

What I'm describing with the visibility SBD is for arbitrarily shifting and wrapping a limb around a character, i.e., having it appear to move from behind the torso to in front of the torso, or wrapping around the torso (i.e., existing in back and front). This is an advanced technique but can be worth the effort for characters that will be re-used in many scenes because the keyframes are a lot easier to track and edit compared with manually keyframing Layer Order animation.

I'll put together a demo video/project to show exactly what I mean, and if I have time, I’ll also show why this is preferable to using Animated Layer Order inside an SBD.

The thing is that i have 4gb ram i3 computer so if i go for making refrence layers and use their visibility for later ordering them it might make my rig file big and will make computer slow for animating.

TBH, I don't think creating duplicate/reference layers and groups adds much extra processing to a character. Moho is usually pretty good about performance. Granted, I'm using a decently capable computer now, but I made Scareplane on a tiny-screen i5 notebook computer with 4GB of RAM, which had multiple characters and a ton of layers (for example, all the seats in the 727 were separately rigged layers.) This was quite a while ago (2014) but I don't recall having any performance issues with Moho (then called Anime Studio) on that notebook.

If your rigs are performing slowly, try disabling or enabling GPU acceleration. Depending on the type of artwork you're using and the features you’ve applied, having this on or off can make a big difference.

Some types of graphics that can bog down rig performance is unnecessarily high-res images or textures, inefficiently designed or overly dense Smart Warp meshes, or vector art with excessive and unnecessary points. If the layers are appropriately optimized, they should deform easily and responsively with bones.

If rig performance is VERY slow, make sure the project isn’t bogged down by unintended negative keyframes. Use Synthsin75’s Delete Negative Keyframe tool to check and fix any possible problems.

Finally, there are many options for improving rig performance by optimizing the display settings. It’s not important to see everything in the workspace with every display option enabled all the time. Hide layers (click the eyeball icon in the Layers window) for layers you don’t need to see until you’re ready to render the project. (For example., environment layers, characters and props you’re not currently animating, etc.) You can also hide/disable certain display properties like textures, antialiasing. Disabling unneeded options can improve speed and have no affect on final render quality. (FYI, I almost always disable display anti-aliasing, and sometimes I’ll disable textures. Most of the time, I don't need to do this, but every little bit helps when I'm working in very complicated projects so optimizing is a good habit to get into.)

Hope these tips are helpful.

[catwrestler]

Visibility and reference layers! Great idea. I think I just might try that!

[striker2311]

So i think i can go with Lukas script for time being...
That will work fine right?

It depends on what you're trying to do. Lukas' script uses the Y-position of the item to determine its depth. It's a fairly specific use and if that's what you need, then it can be very useful. (See his demonstrations in the thread linked above.)

If it's for something really simple though, like making a dog run circles around a tree (i.e., back to front to back...), then manually keyframing Layer Order is probably all you need.

What I'm describing with the visibility SBD is for arbitrarily shifting and wrapping a limb around a character, i.e., having it appear to move from behind the torso to in front of the torso, or wrapping around the torso (i.e., existing in back and front). This is an advanced technique but can be worth the effort for characters that will be re-used in many scenes because the keyframes are a lot easier to track and edit compared with manually keyframing Layer Order animation.

I'll put together a demo video/project to show exactly what I mean, and if I have time, I’ll also show why this is preferable to using Animated Layer Order inside an SBD.

The thing is that i have 4gb ram i3 computer so if i go for making refrence layers and use their visibility for later ordering them it might make my rig file big and will make computer slow for animating.

TBH, I don't think creating duplicate/reference layers and groups adds much extra processing to a character. Moho is usually pretty good about performance. Granted, I'm using a decently capable computer now, but I made Scareplane on a tiny-screen i5 notebook computer with 4GB of RAM, which had multiple characters and a ton of layers (for example, all the seats in the 727 were separately rigged layers.) This was quite a while ago (2014) but I don't recall having any performance issues with Moho (then called Anime Studio) on that notebook.

If your rigs are performing slowly, try disabling or enabling GPU acceleration. Depending on the type of artwork you're using and the features you’ve applied, having this on or off can make a big difference.

Some types of graphics that can bog down rig performance is unnecessarily high-res images or textures, inefficiently designed or overly dense Smart Warp meshes, or vector art with excessive and unnecessary points. If the layers are appropriately optimized, they should deform easily and responsively with bones.

If rig performance is VERY slow, make sure the project isn’t bogged down by unintended negative keyframes. Use Synthsin75’s Delete Negative Keyframe tool to check and fix any possible problems.

Finally, there are many options for improving rig performance by optimizing the display settings. It’s not important to see everything in the workspace with every display option enabled all the time. Hide layers (click the eyeball icon in the Layers window) for layers you don’t need to see until you’re ready to render the project. (For example., environment layers, characters and props you’re not currently animating, etc.) You can also hide/disable certain display properties like textures, antialiasing. Disabling unneeded options can improve speed and have no affect on final render quality. (FYI, I almost always disable display anti-aliasing, and sometimes I’ll disable textures. Most of the time, I don't need to do this, but every little bit helps when I'm working in very complicated projects so optimizing is a good habit to get into.)

Hope these tips are helpful.

Thanks greenlaw, i think I can Use visibility tricks for my next rigs now..
Once again thanks

[Greenlaw]

There actually a lot of ways to do this, but Visibility has so far been the easiest for me when I need to build an advanced 'all purpose' rig.

For example, you can also use Stroke Exposure to make an animated mask the hides the upper or lower parts of an arm, and works in reverse in a duplicate layer to reveal the upper or lower parts of the arm there. That's what I used in that Puss In Boots rig, and it worked well for that. (I described the setup in detail in a recent post elsewhere in this forum.) But I switched to another method when I was working on All Hail King Julien, and by the time I was building rigs for Boss Baby, I settled on the Visibility trick and have pretty much used that ever since.

It's good to know all the tricks though because some tricks are better suited for certain types of characters.

[striker2311]

There actually a lot of ways to do this, but Visibility has so far been the easiest for me when I need to build an advanced 'all purpose' rig.

For example, you can also use Stroke Exposure to make an animated mask the hides the upper or lower parts of an arm, and works in reverse in a duplicate layer to reveal the upper or lower parts of the arm there. That's what I used in that Puss In Boots rig, and it worked well for that. (I described the setup in detail in a recent post elsewhere in this forum.) But I switched to another method when I was working on All Hail King Julien, and by the time I was building rigs for Boss Baby, I settled on the Visibility trick and have pretty much used that ever since.

It's good to know all the tricks though because some tricks are better suited for certain types of characters.

Yeah now to me too, it sounds like visibility can be easier ...

[MrMiracle77]

This makes me wonder: is there a comprehensive list of action conflicts for Moho?

For example: with point movements, smartbones seem to move by relative position; adding +n or -n to an X/Y coordinate. So smartbones can mix with smartbones and their overall changes will be 'summed' together. However, morph actions seem to move by absolute position; moving from the current location to a specific X/Y position within the layer. So trying to use a morph and a smartbone on the same points creates an unintended conflict, with the smartbone trying to create relative movement and the morph trying to create absolute movement.

[synthsin75]

Smart bones and blend morphs were never meant to be used together. For one, blend morphs are single frame morph targets while smart bones require about 100 frames for good interpolation.