Moho Forum

Hello. After a quite a bit of work with Moho, I faced this problem.
My character rig is quite complex and his general bone layer has inside 7 more bone layers. The problem is, that in the case of such rig, option Export and Import actions does not work correctly.

For example, If you make a walk cycle animation for your 1 bone layer rig. Exparting this action, delete it in your project, highlighting the right bones and Import back, you will get your animation back with no problem. This is a simple way to create an animation archive for your rig or reuse some animations from your other projects.

But in the case of multi-layers bone rig, it doesn't work. If I do any animation with multi-layers rig, put it in one action and try to Export and Import this action back. The animation will be Imported only for the main bone layer rig, and all the inner bone layers will be completely empty.

I'm quite don't understand why it's not possible. Weirdly, But even if I try Import this action without highlighting any character's bones, then Imported action will not contain any animation at all, even for the main layer bone. You MUST highlight the character bones for a successful import action, even if it is the same rig.

BUT! At the same time, If I, in the multi-layers bone rig, will display all bone layers keyframe animation, highlight all the keyframe that I need, and press the copy option. Then go to another project where the same rig has no animation, just highlight all the bones layers and press the Paste option. Then ALL the animation for ALL BONE LAYERS will be successfully copied. I didn't even highlight any bones, only bones layers! But the keyframe still successfully found its bones and copied.
So, gets that, for whatever reason Export and Import actions much worse and weaker than simple Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V.
Does it even make sense? When the import animation can't understand where put the keyframe until you kindly highlight its bones? But at the same time Ctrl+V just need a bone layer to do the job.
Very weird.

In any case, my question is. Is there any special way to correctly Import action for multi-layers bone rig?
Or maybe, any script which allows you to select and the animation for ALL layers. And maybe even copy the animation and paste it into a specific frame?
I know that Moho has an option "select all keyframe" But it only works on the selected layer. But I need the keyframe be copied from ALL layers.

Import/export actions is designed to allow actions to be applied to different rigs. Copy/paste is designed for moving stuff between the same rig.

synthsin75 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 5:25 pm Import/export actions is designed to allow actions to be applied to different rigs. Copy/paste is designed for moving stuff between the same rig.

Well, if that's so, it's a failed design. Because copy/paste can moving stuff between different rigs too. If different rigs bones have the same base and names, then copy/paste can transfer all animation, even multi-bones groups animation in one go.
If it's completely different rigs, copy/paste can moving only one thing at a time, as long as you have selected the bone\layer on which you want to copy the animation.

Import/export actions not only can't bring the multi-bones groups animation back to the same rig. But I also noticed that it seems to only work with bones and layers. If in the bone layer you have any vector layer animation, then this vector animation will not be export back, even if it's the same rig.

Let me describe what I would like to achieve.
For example, in one project I made a funny walking animation for my multi-bones layers rig. Now I'm going to another project with the same rig and I realized, that I needed that funny walking animation again. Question. How do I copy it? Absolutely Moho must have some kind of function specifically for such cases that rig animators always deal with. But the answer is NO, there is no such function!
If I Import/export that funny walking animation, I get the animation only for the main body bone layer, but my rig has a separate bone layer for each limb. Despite the fact that if I go inside the action, I see all the animation for all the bone layers and it can inserts-copy at the main time line without any problems. But when i expart this action, it deletes all animation except the main bone layer, because it's too dumb to understand which bone layers animation should have copied. Or expart just can't see more than 1 bone layer. Which is really dumb because Copy/paste has no problem with it at all, even between different projects.

So, the only thing left for me to do is manually copy each bone layer keyframe and paste into another project. Which takes a lot of time and annoying. And also, apparently, I don't have the ability to create an animation archive for my multi-bones layers rig, since Import/export does not work in these cases. But, I can still create separate projects for individual animations, open and copy them when needed. But If only Moho would have the option to select all keyframe of all the layers to copy them. But Moho can't do that either.

I tested it and exporting an action from the character's root layer (its bone layer) saves the bones animation and the vector layer's animation, but importing it to the same character again, the vector layer's animation is lost and only the bone animation remains. To be precise, the vector layer's animation that is activated by a smartbone is not lost, but the vector layer's animation that is independent from any smartbone is lost. That shoudn't happen but it happens in Moho 13.5.1 and, to my surprise, in 12.5 too.

My rig only has one bone layer, so it's not because of multiple bone layers. Multiple bone layers can cause its own problems because Moho has some limitations arround nested bone layers. I have written in my notes that a smartbone located on a bone layer cannot animate a vector layer that is inside another bone layer. That's why I avoid using multiple bone layers, but I'm not sure if that is affecting you, in wich case we would be talking about two different problems. This second one being less relevant in my opinion as we can usually work arround it, but the importing of actions losing the vector animation seems to me like a feature breaking bug.

Daxel wrote: ↑Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:04 pm To be precise, the vector layer's animation that is activated by a smartbone is not lost, but the vector layer's animation that is independent from any smartbone is lost.

Of course layer's animation that is activated by a smartbone is not lost, Because you don't Import/export vector layer smart action that activated inside smartbone, you just Import/export that smartbone movement itself. And since that bone movement in the main bone layer, it won't have any Import/export problems. Smartbone vectors layer's animation you left untouched.
But if you try Import/export bone smart action itself which contain vectors layer's animation, (like, how your knees should bend, etc.) all vectors layer's animation will be lost and only empty bone movements will remain.

Daxel wrote: ↑Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:04 pm That shoudn't happen but it happens in Moho 13.5.1 and, to my surprise, in 12.5 too.

I'm using Moho 12.2. It's also here.

Daxel wrote: ↑Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:04 pm My rig only has one bone layer, so it's not because of multiple bone layers.

No, it's not because multiple bone layers, it's because it was been broken from the beginning. But that does not cancel the fact that Import/export is incapable of saving multiple bone layers animation. Which I personally find incredibly stupid, because...
Why the f@*k NOT???!... When even a simple copy/paste can do it without any problem.

Daxel wrote: ↑Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:04 pm Multiple bone layers can cause its own problems because Moho has some limitations arround nested bone layers. I have written in my notes that a smartbone located on a bone layer cannot animate a vector layer that is inside another bone layer. That's why I avoid using multiple bone layers.

Yeah, I wouldn't create multiple bone layers rig If it were necessary for the rig quality I need. If I put all the bones I need on 1 layer, I would get about 400 bones, which is impossible to work to. I don't know.., may be if only Moho has some bone group function that would allow me to see only certain bones group and turn off everything else.... Like bones layers. I know the function "hide highlighted bones" and "shy bones" But they are not able to help in my situation.
And yes, I have tried some of bones group mods, they make Moho crash all the time for me.

Besides, Let me tell you about what multiple bone layers rig gives you advantages.

First, you need make your actions for, legs, arms, eyes, etc, оnly one time. Then copy this bone layer, move it to the right position (mirror it if necessary) and all actions is already there, you don't need to do everything for the second limb.

Second. Other bones do not disturb the work. When you work with the leg, you see only leg bones, with the arm, only arm bones, etc. These bastards never overlaidat each other and you don't have to hide and show them all the time.

Third, the rig is much more stoble. If I even do about 100 bones rig, Moho already starts swearing, coughing, lagging and crashing.
But as I spread the bones by layers, Moho begins to see each layer as a separate character and Moho works much better with multiple characters than one characters with a bunch of bones.

So I would say that building a multiple bone layers rig is actually the best way to build a rig. The only problems are just like you said "smartbone located on a bone layer cannot animate a vector layer that is inside another bone layer." Which has a simple workaround, And if you want, I can tell you how to do it, but you probably already know.
And Import/export doesn't work. Other than that, I see no reason why I should NOT build multiple bone layers rig.

Daxel wrote: ↑Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:04 pm but the importing of actions losing the vector animation seems to me like a feature breaking bug.

I assume as the developers designed Import/export work between different rig, they intentionally made it so that Import deleted everything but the main bone layer. So, I guess that in Moho are no tools to transfer the animation for the same rig between different projects (other than manually copy/paste). When I started working with Moho I expected that Import/export exactly that's what it's for. And I am very surprised that no one besides me is pointing out the problem that this unhelpful nonsense does not even work.

What's up with the new posters who only come here to piss and moan lately? Maybe try to show another side, as a better introduction to the community?

FanN80085 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:35 am Which I personally find incredibly stupid, because...
Why the f@*k NOT???!... When even a simple copy/paste can do it without any problem.

Well, you are not going to find a more complex and capable 2d rigging system than Moho's anywhere, so maybe is not "incredibly stupid" but a current limitation that can be improved. And the best way to achieve that is not ranting and insulting the devs.

FanN80085 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:35 am I assume as the developers designed Import/export work between different rig, they intentionally made it so that Import deleted everything but the main bone layer. So, I guess that in Moho are no tools to transfer the animation for the same rig between different projects (other than manually copy/paste).

Yeah may be. But I think that having a folder with a lot of saved (exported) actions is a great way to have them stored and organized, ready to be incorpored to any scene without having to bloat the character's action panel permanently. Maybe they could consider that use case and provide an option (maybe a checkbox) to enable a "full import" mode that doesn't lose vector layer's animation. It could be a good proposal and maybe it is not hard to develop.

synthsin75 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:34 am What's up with the new posters who only come here to piss and moan lately?

Doesn't seem to have changed much over the years since I was here last, has it?

After some experiments it became clear that Import/export actions cannot work for more than 1 layer at all. It doesn't matter what kind of layer it is, bone, vector point animation, or shape color change. If you create an animation for multiple bone folders or multiple vector layers and put all into 1 action. If Import/export this action, the animation will be saved only for one layer (It Automatically selects top layer animation.) And it only works this way.
I don't know about the final version, but it works like this from 12.2 up to 13.5 version.

So, considering this. The only way to transfer the animation for multiple bone folders rig or multiple vector layer point animation, from one project for another. It you have to create separate actions for EACH bone folders and vector layers animation of your rig. And then export actions separately for each folders/layers on another project.
But that's NOT ALL, you need to follow the rules to make it work.
Most likely the animation you want to move will be in the Mainline. And you thought that just to create a new action and Insert a copy from Mainline for each bone folder/vector layers will be enough. NO! In this case bone animation for inside bone folders will be imported incorrectly. You need to manually inside each actions delete all the animation for all bones/vector layers, except for the one for which this action is intended. The action must contain only 1 layer animation or it will be imported incorrectly. Also, there is a 90% chance that your bone animation impor can break if If the animation contains Bones-Scale movements. ( I don't know why, but Import/export and Bones-Scale not stand each other, at least in my 12.2 version and have a 90% chance that the animation start lag and crash. ) So you have to delete all Bones-Scale movements, If you have some.

So yeah, that's how actions Import/export works. I don't know who had the idea to do it like this. But at this moment, it's much faster to create a separate project with only holds your rig animation that you want to reuse. Make visible all the keyframe for all layers, highlight them all, copy. Highlight all folders In your other project and paste.
Of course, you will spend a lot of time to highlight all keyframes, but it's still a million times faster than creating a separate action for each layer and Import/export each of them like a madman.
So Import/export action can be useful only for a very very long animation for 1 bone folder rig. Except for this cases, it is much faster to use copy/paste. Or maybe I don't know something.

synthsin75 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:34 am What's up with the new posters who only come here to piss and moan lately? Maybe try to show another side, as a better introduction to the community?

I see you're a veteran, your posts just shine with useful and explained information, Thanks.

Daxel wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:36 am And the best way to achieve that is not ranting and insulting the devs.

What devs? Moho has a live devs?

FanN80085 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 27, 2021 6:46 am What devs? Moho has a live devs?

So, to whom you're actually addressing these writings?
You think there are no devs and you're not keen on being polite?

Are we simply interfering with your inner dialogue?

All I can say is that you get a lot more positive reaction and help if you don't yell at and criticize the very people you are asking for help. Please continue posting issues WE ALL WANT AND NEED THAT INFORMATION, just make a small effort to be respectful about it.

-------------------

There are so many incredibly talented, super smart people with huge pulsating brains (like the Talosians) on this forum who LOVE solving all kinds of problems. Attacking and criticizing them and the "non-existent devs" is not the best way to go in my humble opinion (you have no idea how hard it is to get work done when you don't exist).

I've been using Moho/Anime Studio/Moho for... many many years. Moho just like EVERY APPLICATION EVER CREATED will ALWAYS have issues. Some of those issues people learn to work around while others moan and groan about them and can't get past it. (Have you seen some of the ranting and raving on the Adobe forums? YEEEHAAA! YIKES!) You have to learn to effectively state your issues above and beyond the frustration you feel about it. This will help get it fixed in the future.

I agree with you 100% that import/export of actions should work perfectly, or at least a little better. However it isn't something the "non-existent devs" do on purpose. From my point of view as a long time user of Moho, this feature is kind of new-ish. A long long time ago I wrote a set of scripts for import/export of bone animation ONLY. It actually worked. However it was a freaking NIGHTMARE to manage and I was THRILLED when I saw it as a built in feature. That feature, even with the issues, was a bazillion times better than my scripted solution and I would never ever ever have to edit my dang scripts to add new changes to bones again... PHEW! Hahahaha! I even remember when I created a script to COLORIZE AND GROUP BONES! Yeehaaa! Thank god that didn't last long, phew.

Moho is now back in the hands of the original genius who created it! (yes, Mike is a freaking GENIUS!) Thank GOD! Not many software companies have such a fast and effective response to users issues. I LOVE SMALL COMPANIES like this. Mike and his team are dedicated to EVERYONE who uses it and they do their best to take issues like this seriously.

\o/ In BEARD we trust \o/

Okay, you could have just explained it to me at the very beginning how Import/export works and the fact that it only works for 1 layer.
Instead I figured out the problem myself and spent a lot of time reading about, how you like prays for devs. I just need the right information, for to know what to tell in programmer commission to order the right script. ​I don't care how much you love devs. I will not count on them.
Thanks for the useless information. Have a good day.

No need to be a jerk about it...

Welcome to the community lol 🥲

FanN80085 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 29, 2021 6:07 am I just need the right information, for to know what to tell in programmer commission to order the right script. ​

After dealing with your attitude, I would charge extra just to put up with you. Hope you already know a programmer familiar with the Moho API. Good luck.