Moho expert group?Simplify modeling ideas!

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sang820
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Moho expert group?Simplify modeling ideas!

Post by sang820 »

:shock: As we all know, the effective use of Moho to produce commercial animation is a long-term problem.
Perhaps, a [Moho expert group] can be formed to provide enterprise users with a total solution --- design + modeling + animation.
Because companies don't want Moho, companies only want animation. It would be great if Moho officially provided several solutions and helped the company complete the project.
This can save companies the time to explore Moho, improve efficiency for companies, and win more market space for Moho.
Hope everyone discuss=)

sang820
Last edited by sang820 on Fri Jan 21, 2022 2:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Maestral
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Re: Moho expert group?

Post by Maestral »

Hi, Sang!
Although your proposal sounds affirmative - I have some doubts in regards to your premise.

"the effective use of Moho to produce commercial animation is a long-term problem"
which is argumented by: "Because companies don't want Moho, companies only want animation"

To me, it sounds like you drew a conclusion just based on requirements for a specific style of animation.
There's no sw that can cover it all. Whether it's about animation or anything else for that matter.

Nobody really needs just the sw. Neither you, me nor the companies. We all need someone how knows how to operate a certain sw. That also means that this skilled person knows the limitations of that particular sw but also knows a couple of routes to handle such obstacles. < this applies to any given sw and in almost all cases involves the use of some additional sw.

Do you really think separating advanced users of Moho would benefit anyone while there is a section of the forum called "Animation Jobs" where (far as I know) anybody can post a request?
If you do - what would be the way to decide/declare who is and who is not Moho Expert?
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synthsin75
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Re: Moho expert group?

Post by synthsin75 »

I couldn't figure out if this was a suggestion for expert Moho users to start an animation studio or something else. If it is, it would be hard to raise the startup and advertising capital for a new studio, competing with many established, well-known studios. And no idea why anyone would come to a studio dedicated to a single software.

I get that we want to promote Moho, but quality personal projects, more adoption by existing studios, etc. is the way to do that.
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Re: Moho expert group?

Post by chucky »

Edit: It seems Wes and I said almost the same thing at the same time.
Nice one Wes :D
Anyway here's the post for what it is worth :


It does sound like you want to start an internet production company.
The following may sound patronising, apologies in advance Sang, You have my full respect and I'm assuming you know everything I'm about to say.
I just thought I'd clarify what you are proposing.

There are many special effects and production companies that service the film/ streaming / advertising industries, some are large some are individual freelancers.
You would have worked in at least one of these capacities.

There is nothing unusual about your suggestion, it is fine, almost every cent I have ever earned has been within structures like this.
Weta, ILM, Fortiche , Dave Enterprises all work like this. Even companies like Dreamworks take on projects from streaming services in a similar vein ( they just take on the writing as well).
The main difference is You'll be specialising in puppet animation ( using Moho) rather than Maya, Houdini, ToonBoom or whatever, the client won't care which apps you use.

If you want to be the head of a new company then go for it, the trick is to have a good team and a reliable stream of clients.
Also, whoever runs such an operation would have to be committed , tenacious and have the stamina for a rocky road.

Lost Marble and the various social media Moho sites would be a great place to harvest Moho experts, but I suspect, as I have discussed with others who conspire to do the same thing in different markets, you may have to train your own team. .
They could work in house/ long contracts or all be freelancers.

You need start up investors, lawyers, managers and admin staff (even if it is a tiny skeleton operation with multitaskers, those tasks need handling).
The absolute most important thing is a competent business manager, without dedicated brains on the money you will have no chance.
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Re: Moho expert group?

Post by synthsin75 »

I'm sure you have much more personal experience and valuable insight on the subject than I do, Chucky. :wink:
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Maestral
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Re: Moho expert group?

Post by Maestral »

I totally missed the 'Studio' interpretation hence my doubts.
Though, I think Sang does not lack too much of such experience as well (hence my doubts/misinterpretation)
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Re: Moho expert group?

Post by sang820 »

Maestral wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 1:53 am Hi, Sang!
Although your proposal sounds affirmative - I have some doubts in regards to your premise.

"the effective use of Moho to produce commercial animation is a long-term problem"
which is argumented by: "Because companies don't want Moho, companies only want animation"

To me, it sounds like you drew a conclusion just based on requirements for a specific style of animation.
There's no sw that can cover it all. Whether it's about animation or anything else for that matter.

Nobody really needs just the sw. Neither you, me nor the companies. We all need someone how knows how to operate a certain sw. That also means that this skilled person knows the limitations of that particular sw but also knows a couple of routes to handle such obstacles. < this applies to any given sw and in almost all cases involves the use of some additional sw.

Do you really think separating advanced users of Moho would benefit anyone while there is a section of the forum called "Animation Jobs" where (far as I know) anybody can post a request?
If you do - what would be the way to decide/declare who is and who is not Moho Expert?
:shock: First of all, thank you for your reply =)

1 - the Moho model (including the official Moho example) in the current market has a very complex structure (in my opinion).

2 - complex model, unable to mass produce animation. Because it can't be popularized to more animators.

3 - [expert group] is a volunteer responsible for formulating [simple and efficient] modeling and animation standards. This standard is extended to enterprises unfamiliar with Moho.

4 - for enterprise projects adopting this standard, the standard proposer shall assist in completing the project.

Step [3] it is necessary to discuss, run in and purify the scheme in several groups. But all this is unpaid.

Step [4] the enterprise pays the standard setter [consulting fee].


Moho needs to refine the production scheme, and Moho cannot serve the enterprise with personal preferences.
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Re: Moho expert group?

Post by sang820 »

synthsin75 wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 2:25 am I couldn't figure out if this was a suggestion for expert Moho users to start an animation studio or something else. If it is, it would be hard to raise the startup and advertising capital for a new studio, competing with many established, well-known studios. And no idea why anyone would come to a studio dedicated to a single software.

I get that we want to promote Moho, but quality personal projects, more adoption by existing studios, etc. is the way to do that.
:shock: 请参考步骤【3】。

High quality personal projects are too rare. Can personal workflow solve enterprise projects? Is it modular enough? Can we split and outsource? Is there a unified technical standard?

One person's experience is only suitable for solving one person's project.
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Re: Moho expert group?

Post by sang820 »

chucky wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 2:27 am Edit: It seems Wes and I said almost the same thing at the same time.
Nice one Wes :D
Anyway here's the post for what it is worth :


It does sound like you want to start an internet production company.
The following may sound patronising, apologies in advance Sang, You have my full respect and I'm assuming you know everything I'm about to say.
I just thought I'd clarify what you are proposing.

There are many special effects and production companies that service the film/ streaming / advertising industries, some are large some are individual freelancers.
You would have worked in at least one of these capacities.

There is nothing unusual about your suggestion, it is fine, almost every cent I have ever earned has been within structures like this.
Weta, ILM, Fortiche , Dave Enterprises all work like this. Even companies like Dreamworks take on projects from streaming services in a similar vein ( they just take on the writing as well).
The main difference is You'll be specialising in puppet animation ( using Moho) rather than Maya, Houdini, ToonBoom or whatever, the client won't care which apps you use.

If you want to be the head of a new company then go for it, the trick is to have a good team and a reliable stream of clients.
Also, whoever runs such an operation would have to be committed , tenacious and have the stamina for a rocky road.

Lost Marble and the various social media Moho sites would be a great place to harvest Moho experts, but I suspect, as I have discussed with others who conspire to do the same thing in different markets, you may have to train your own team. .
They could work in house/ long contracts or all be freelancers.

You need start up investors, lawyers, managers and admin staff (even if it is a tiny skeleton operation with multitaskers, those tasks need handling).
The absolute most important thing is a competent business manager, without dedicated brains on the money you will have no chance.
:shock: Thank you for your detailed reply=)

I should limit a range.

A - production companies serving [production personnel but inefficient technology]. They need technology upgrades.

B - make Moho competent for the [character animation] module. [expert group] only focuses on the field of [character animation].


A complete animation project, of course, is very complex. Moho will focus on [character animation] to achieve better results.
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Re: Moho expert group?

Post by Maestral »

I believe you wrote about similar things before.
From what I could recall - the way Moho is presented is too complicated for animators unfamiliar with Moho and I believe you've mentioned something about animation examples not being quite attractive / visually appealing.

Would it not be easier to set/present a few examples which you find attractive and propose the approach which should be developed/adopted?
Far as I know, most of us here are in for making a contribution

Could you please elaborate on this:
"A - production companies serving [production personnel but inefficient technology]. They need technology upgrades."

Moho offers several options for the same task, as it could be seen from the "outside". Channelling all this into one predefined routine must have some advantages which I'm not aware of?

It could easily be just me but, in my opinion, one does not start planning animation by choosing the sw first. I believe some other issues are addressed first (stylistic or artistic) and once you have those guides, you most likely already know about several sw options. The further selection is based on the production capacity.

Setting the modules, as you call it, should be shaped towards certain expectations. Could you define these?
Last edited by Maestral on Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Moho expert group?

Post by sang820 »

:shock: I revised my proposal



1 - [expert group] refine [character modeling and animation] schemes a, B and C. The goal is [simple structure and flexible action] (free, this is love for Moho)

2 - officially promoted by Moho to animation production companies. [there are production personnel and technical upgrading is required]

3 - the production company selects scheme a, and the scheme proposer assists in completing the project. (consultant fee paid by production company)



In this way, Moho focuses on solving the problem of [character modeling and animation], which can occupy an advantage and avoid other complex links.
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Re: Moho expert group?

Post by synthsin75 »

sang820 wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:15 am High quality personal projects are too rare. Can personal workflow solve enterprise projects? Is it modular enough? Can we split and outsource? Is there a unified technical standard?
True, quality personal projects are fairly rare.

I definitely see the value in developing one or more standards, with the goal to be more modular. This could even facilitate selling ready-made assets for such standard rigs.
When I find the time, I am interested in exploring scripting to help make more modular rigs. But my personal rigs are far too complex to use as any kind of easily-accessible standard.
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Re: Moho expert group?

Post by sang820 »

Maestral wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:29 am I believe you wrote about similar things before.
From what I could recall - the way Moho is presented is too complicated for animators unfamiliar with Moho and I believe you've mentioned something about animation examples not being quite attractive / visually appealing.

Would it not be easier to set/present a few examples which you find attractive and propose the approach which should be developed/adopted?
Far as I know, most of us here are in for making a contribution
Could you please elaborate on this:
"A - production companies serving [production personnel but inefficient technology]. They need technology upgrades."
Moho offers several options for the same task, as it could be seen from the "outside". Channelling all this into one predefined routine must have some advantages which I'm not aware of?

It could easily be just me but, in my opinion, one does not start planning animation by choosing the sw first. I believe some other issues are addressed first (stylistic or artistic) and once you have those guides, you most likely already know about several sw options. The further selection is based on the production capacity.

Setting the modules, as you call it, should be shaped towards certain expectations. Could you define these?
Would it not be easier to set/present a few examples which you find attractive and propose the approach which should be developed/adopted?
These attractive examples need opinions from different angles and discussions to purify and analyze:

1 - good art? What's good about it?

2 - good model structure? What's good about it?

3 - good binding logic? What's good about it?

4 - good animation? What's good about it?



Only by discussing and researching as a topic can we copy and promote it to people who are not familiar with Moho. Because the understanding of people varies greatly. Therefore, it needs to be split to form certain technical indicators.
------------------------------------------------------------
Could you please elaborate on this:
"A - production companies serving [production personnel but inefficient technology]. They need technology upgrades."
1 - production companies and studios using complex Moho models.

This is a problem left over by history. Complex layering and complex skeletal systems starting with the official Moho paradigm. It's charming, but it will kill the project. As a technology research exploration is great, but to match the actual production, it is necessary to peel off overly complex technologies and even more potential technologies.


2 - companies or studios using outdated technology.

Their project budget can't afford the price of frame by frame animation and 3D animation, and can't accept rough frame by frame animation and 3D animation effects, so Moho will be a compromise
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Re: Moho expert group?

Post by sang820 »

synthsin75 wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:54 am
sang820 wrote: Sat Jan 08, 2022 3:15 am High quality personal projects are too rare. Can personal workflow solve enterprise projects? Is it modular enough? Can we split and outsource? Is there a unified technical standard?
True, quality personal projects are fairly rare.

I definitely see the value in developing one or more standards, with the goal to be more modular. This could even facilitate selling ready-made assets for such standard rigs.
When I find the time, I am interested in exploring scripting to help make more modular rigs. But my personal rigs are far too complex to use as any kind of easily-accessible standard.
:shock: Simplify the model! Simplify the structure! :shock:
We spend decades exploring Moho, but others can't spend decades on a commercial project. Therefore, we should summarize the technical standards and save them time. It's good for everyone.
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Re: Moho expert group?

Post by Maestral »

Many thanks for the explanation.

What's good about it?
I believe this should serve as a reference point for any module structure, which should be defined towards the most common styles. From the simplified to the advanced/complex ones.
Though, this sounds more like a task for LM marketing department. Such things are usually researched first. As you've mentioned - here, almost any production requirement could be met but which ones are the proper examples for these modules? Not sure we could cover them all
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