Moho Forum

Here's a video of my reference layers breaking again! It never works for me! It's halting my progress! Can someone please help!

https://drive.google.com/file/d/10puRY7 ... sp=sharing

without seeing the actual file, my guess is that the actions that use both or either of the target and reference are the source of the issue.

hayasidist wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 8:58 am without seeing the actual file, my guess is that the actions that use both or either of the target and reference are the source of the issue.

I thought I put a link in the post. You can't click on the link?

hayasidist wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 8:58 am without seeing the actual file, my guess is that the actions that use both or either of the target and reference are the source of the issue.

How do I share the file? I've never shared a file before?

hayasidist wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 8:58 am without seeing the actual file, my guess is that the actions that use both or either of the target and reference are the source of the issue.

So basically the actions that I have placed on the target is messing up the reference? I don't understand. If that's what you're saying then how do I fix it and also if you don't mind, how do I share the character for upload?

hayasidist wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 8:58 am without seeing the actual file, my guess is that the actions that use both or either of the target and reference are the source of the issue.

I know this is too many replies! LOL! I figured out how to send the file. Also I deleted and readded the reference layers and they seem to work a little. It's only a matter of time before they stop working correctly. Maybe I can still send it and you can see what causes it to "Blow up" sometime for no reason.

kgeetvcartoons wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 11:15 pm

hayasidist wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 8:58 am without seeing the actual file, my guess is that the actions that use both or either of the target and reference are the source of the issue.

I thought I put a link in the post. You can't click on the link?

the link in the OP is to an mp4 video not to the moho file. Sharing the .moho is the same process as sharing the .mp4.

kgeetvcartoons wrote: ↑Sat Apr 26, 2025 3:26 am ...Also I deleted and readded the reference layers and they seem to work a little. It's only a matter of time before they stop working correctly. Maybe I can still send it and you can see what causes it to "Blow up" sometime for no reason.

and that sounds as though you're updating the reference rather than the target and/or not syncing the vectors when you do update the target (source) layers...

hayasidist wrote: ↑Sat Apr 26, 2025 9:35 am

kgeetvcartoons wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 11:15 pm

hayasidist wrote: ↑Fri Apr 25, 2025 8:58 am without seeing the actual file, my guess is that the actions that use both or either of the target and reference are the source of the issue.

I thought I put a link in the post. You can't click on the link?

the link in the OP is to an mp4 video not to the moho file. Sharing the .moho is the same process as sharing the .mp4.

kgeetvcartoons wrote: ↑Sat Apr 26, 2025 3:26 am ...Also I deleted and readded the reference layers and they seem to work a little. It's only a matter of time before they stop working correctly. Maybe I can still send it and you can see what causes it to "Blow up" sometime for no reason.

and that sounds as though you're updating the reference rather than the target and/or not syncing the vectors when you do update the target (source) layers...

I just inboxed a copy of the rig for you to look at. I deleted and readded the reference layers and they seem to work a little until it happens again. Thanks for taking the time to look into it for me.

Hi!

I'm reposting what I wrote in the Discord Chat for anyone here not using Discord...

It’s probably just me, but after watching the video, I’m unsure what the Reference Layer is being used for and what the video is showing me. That said, if you’re new to using Reference Layers, here's some information about this feature that may help…

• Reference Layers reflect changes made to the Original Layer.
• Changes made to a Reference Layer affect only the Reference Layer. Tip: I like to clearly name my Reference Layers with REF or REFERENCE so I don’t unintentionally keyframe it. Setting a unique color for the Layer can also help.
• If you keyframe anything in the Reference Layer, it will break its connection to the keyframed channel with the Original. This is by design, so if that’s not what you want, be careful.
• You can reconnect the channel by Syncing the channel from the Timeline. Note that this will overwrite any existing animation in the Synced channel…so be careful. If you wanted this animation in the Original, I suppose you can copy and paste it to the Original first, and then Sync the channel in the Reference.
• Syncing a Channel is different from Syncing the Layer. That’s a separate command in the Layers Windows, and Syncing To Original will overwrite every channel.
• Only keyframeable channels will be updated in a Reference Channel. For example, changes to Bone Strength or Masking Options will not be Referenced. It may appear to work at first, but the changes will be gone when you close the project and reopen it. This is because there are no keyframes available to retain the changes. (Even though I don’t fully understand your video example, I’m guessing this is what’s going on?)

Something to be aware of: The Reference Layer (and Reference Rig/Project) system in Moho 14.3 is slightly broken right now. When it works, it works well, but sometimes it can randomly create a keyframe in every channel, which makes it difficult to work with. If the problem is caught immediately, it can be fixed by syncing the channels to the original's channels. But if you already have animation changes in the Reference layer, you will lose the Reference Layer’s unique animation...so be careful. Also, there is no guarantee that this won’t happen again. At this time, it's unclear what causes this error.

Anyway, I mostly stopped using Reference Layers because of this bug, which is a shame because Reference Layer is a very useful feature.

As a workaround during Rigging, I prefer instead to Duplicate the Original layer. When I make changes to the original, I replace the previous duplicate with a new duplicate. This can be slightly more work, but it’s more reliable than using a Reference Layer in its current state.

Unfortunately, this doesn’t help when Reference Layers are used for animation effects.

LM is aware of the problem, so hopefully we’ll see a fix in the future. I want to create a tutorial about this feature, but I'm holding off until the issue is solved.

One more thing: the random keyframing of every channel problem has existed for a while, and it won't help to fall back to Moho 13.5 or 12.5. IMO, it's best to avoid Reference Layers for now unless you absolutely need it.

Sorry...ONE more thing: If you already have Reference Layers in your project and you wish to avoid the problem, you can convert the Reference to a regular layer by choosing Break Reference. Sometimes I'll risk using a Reference Layer during the rigging phase for a while, and then break the connection when I'm finished editing the rig. This will prevent the random keyframing problem from appearing later.

I hope this info is helpful!

Question: Are you using the Reference Layer for sorting the layer order by using Visibility?

If so, that's a good technique, and I use it all the time when using Smart Bones to animate layer order. Alternatively, you can use Animated Layer Order, but the problem with using this inside a Smart Bone Action is that it can break when you add/remove layers, or create a conflict when you wish to manually override the Smart Bone's result. Using a Smart Bone to animate Visibility across multiple layers instead poses no such problems.

Anyway, yeah, don't bother using Reference Layers for that. Just duplicate the layer and make any needed changes to the duplicate. It's safer this way and it works perfectly!

Greenlaw wrote: ↑Sun Apr 27, 2025 6:52 pm Question: Are you using the Reference Layer for sorting the layer order by using Visibility?

If so, that's a good technique, and I use it all the time when using Smart Bones to animate layer order. Alternatively, you can use Animated Layer Order, but the problem with using this inside a Smart Bone Action is that it can break when you add/remove layers, or create a conflict when you wish to manually override the Smart Bone's result. Using a Smart Bone to animate Visibility across multiple layers instead poses no such problems.

Anyway, yeah, don't bother using Reference Layers for that. Just duplicate the layer and make any needed changes to the duplicate. It's safer this way and it works perfectly!

Basically in the video I had to cut it short but the reference layers would just blow up or resize somewhere else on the stage. I'm going to try layer visibility and moving layer orders in the timeline.
Great advice and I finally get it now! It was driving me crazy! By the way love your tutorials! Thanks.

kgeetvcartoons wrote: ↑Tue Apr 29, 2025 4:32 am

Greenlaw wrote: ↑Sun Apr 27, 2025 6:52 pm Question: Are you using the Reference Layer for sorting the layer order by using Visibility?

If so, that's a good technique, and I use it all the time when using Smart Bones to animate layer order. Alternatively, you can use Animated Layer Order, but the problem with using this inside a Smart Bone Action is that it can break when you add/remove layers, or create a conflict when you wish to manually override the Smart Bone's result. Using a Smart Bone to animate Visibility across multiple layers instead poses no such problems.

Anyway, yeah, don't bother using Reference Layers for that. Just duplicate the layer and make any needed changes to the duplicate. It's safer this way and it works perfectly!

Basically in the video I had to cut it short but the reference layers would just blow up or resize somewhere else on the stage. I'm going to try layer visibility and moving layer orders in the timeline.
Great advice and I finally get it now! It was driving me crazy! By the way love your tutorials! Thanks.

I received some advice from great hayasidist and I sent you a rig with the reference layer issue. Whenever you get a chance I'd love hear you response as to why my rig is "blowing up my arms" when I hit the visibility on and off.

In the video, there's a tiny and distorted version of the arm to the (screen) left of the character as you point out around the 0:17 mark.

This is likely caused by a combination of two issues.

The first is that the reference copy is corrupt - it includes unnecessary duplicates of child layers (as noted here: viewtopic.php?t=35262 ) and it looks to me as though that issue (with Moho) remains unresolved.

The second is that the layers in question have been transformed on frame 0. That is to say that the frame 0 layer position is not (0,0,0); the layer scale is not (100%, 100%, 100%); and (in some cases) the angle (i.e. rotation about z) is not zero. This can mean that, if (as seems to be the case) a copy is transformed twice, all the transforms accumulate - with the result that (in this case) you get the tiny distorted arm.

As a (personal) principle I absolutely avoid changing any layer attributes on frame 0. If I need them scaled etc, then I do this is on frame 1. But I also try to avoid this by making sure that my vectors are drawn "in the right place" (i.e. my aim is never to rely on moving a layer to reposition/scale/etc the vector - I move the vector within the layer).

hayasidist wrote: ↑Tue Apr 29, 2025 10:37 am As a (personal) principle I absolutely avoid changing any layer attributes on frame 0...avoid this by making sure that my vectors are drawn "in the right place" (i.e. my aim is never to rely on moving a layer to reposition/scale/etc the vector - I move the vector within the layer).

This is great advice. It can save you from headaches later on.