Moho Animation Forum

I've got a lot of heads with separate elements on layers to animate from a basic expression to various emotive expressions (happy, sad, etc) and I'm trying to get my workflow in order -

Is there a way to move (or copy) keyframes on several layers at once?

if not, then I guess I could do with a quick way to copy artworks from several layers into one layer - to move the keys - then copy the artworks back to their original separate layers.

(I'm planning on ending up with every facial expression, or key pose, as a single-frame action which I can apply as I need to the main timeline)

Thank you dear gurus!

mac

So... you have multiple heads of the same character with different expressions in different group layers or switch layers?

You plan to use actions correct?

There is no way to copy key frames from multiple layers. However if you animate each layer in an action or copy the key frames from the main timeline to an action that INCLUDES all those layers you could apply them at once.

If all those layers were in a group or bone layer you could create an action and apply each layers animation to this new action. Then apply the action to the group or bone layer that CONTAINS all the layers and they should all get keyed at the same time.

I wouldn't see the point of trying to combine them into one but you could do this.

For instance imagine you have multiple vector layers that make up one head or face. Each layer has it's own key frames. You couldn't copy those key frames from all layers all at once, but you could copy and paste all the meshes from each vector layers and paste them into ONE vector layer and retain all the keys for those points.

Copy and paste will keep any point motion.

You could then do whatever you need to do to modify them and separate them again into separate layers for each shape.

-vern

heyvern wrote: So... you have multiple heads of the same character with different expressions in different group layers or switch layers?
You plan to use actions correct? -vern

if there's any advice you can give me about a better way to do this, I'm all ears!

I need to make a head that can tilt a little (planning on using a bone) , & change expression, (planning on using point animation)

I'm creating the heads one at a time (the art needs to be very accurate so I'm tracing images for each expression imported from illustrator - as you know, illustrator vectors get mangled so i have to trace png's)

First, I'm tracing a 'master' neutral head on frame 0

what I have are several vector layers (one for eyes, mouth, hair, etc) which I will put into one bone layer.

to make the expressions, I'm moving the points so as to make the shapes fit the art I've previously drawn for each expression and imported as a png to trace from.
I move everything for the first expression on one frame - say 12 - so I can slide the timeline and see the morph to check it out.


it sort of worked ok on the first head I did, though I did have a couple of problems, since, to make the action, i need to slide all the keys to frame 1 to make a single frame action (single frame info was a tip from Darth Furby's vid) - and using the tip Genete pointed out about how I could copy keyframes from the main timeline and put them into an action -- which i guess is what you mean here -

heyvern wrote: If all those layers were in a group or bone layer you could create an action and apply each layers animation to this new action. Then apply the action to the group or bone layer that CONTAINS all the layers and they should all get keyed at the same time. ?-vern

.
BUT - I still need to be able to see the morph take place to check it before I reduce everything to a single frame before making the action with that procedure.

Genete gave me another tip which I couldn't get to work yet
I'll quote it to consolidate everything here

Genete wrote:Of course you can edit your action at frame 12 to see morph effect and then recover its position to frame 1. I also do following:
Create action A. Then create action B and insert (copy, not reference) action A inside action B at frame 1 when editing. Then at frame 12 (for example) I make my morph. When happy I clear the keyframes from action A and place the keyframes from B to frame 1.
-G

heyvern wrote: I wouldn't see the point of trying to combine them into one.... -vern

just to make it possible to slide and copy the keyframes all at once, for the above reason, i.e. to reduce my multi-frame layered keys to frame 1 only, in prep for making the action

- but you're making me think I'm missing something here!

Also - there's a workflow issue here I need to get right - I was hoping to create all my different facial expressions in one document (or timeline), by putting each on separate keyframes - say, happy on frame 12, sad on frame 24, etc, but since making an action copies everything on the timeline (hence the need to make frame 1 only hold data) - and it's not possible to copy only from a particlur keyframe (for all layers) - it looks like I'll have to create my expressions all in separate documents and import the actions somehow.
Is this right?

heyvern wrote: Copy and paste will keep any point motion. -vern

Thanks - useful to know


I wonder - how common is it to build heads for animation in ASPro on layers - as opposed to flat. Surely layers make moving points for animation easier, even though they obviously have drawbacks.

For Bones, I guess it makes sense to use layers since when you animate the layered art the keys just get put on one bone layer where they can be got at easily.

I really need to learn how to set up bones to do complex shape movement but I'm up against a tight deadline so I stuck with points and a just two bones for now.

Are there any good ( & simple!) AS head / figure vector models out there I could study? I downloaded the female head you so generously put here but the bone set-up is too complex for me to try and re-create for my model just now - in time I definitely plan to get to grips with it.

Still feel like I haven't totally got the 'big picture' yet with AS's bones and points interplay.

Phew! There's a lot of detail here, so if it's too much for anyone to devote time to this, don't worry - I'll plod on. I know you guys must be very busy.


Mac

Here's what you should do...

Do the expressions as you described:

I was hoping to create all my different facial expressions in one document (or timeline), by putting each on separate keyframes - say, happy on frame 12, sad on frame 24, etc,

Now you have one time line one vector layer with all those expressions. There are two ways to use this...

The first is to just duplicate that layer the same number of times as expressions you need. One for each. Delete all the keys except one for each duplicate layer.

Put all those layers in one switch layer. Name each layer what it represents. Now you can just key the switch for each expression on the time line.

The second option would be to apply that first layer to a bunch of actions. Delete those "extra" key frames for each action so you only have one "expression" keyed on frame 1 of each action. Name the actions to match the facial expression.

You really need to get up to speed on how AS works and understand switch layers and group layers etc etc. Learning the basics will help you in determining your work flow.

I look at files I did when I first started using it... YIKES! What a mess.

-vern

heyvern wrote:Here's what you should do...

Do the expressions as you described:

I was hoping to create all my different facial expressions in one document (or timeline), by putting each on separate keyframes - say, happy on frame 12, sad on frame 24, etc,

-vern

As I have the document now, the head has about 15 layers, eyes (with eyeLids & eyeballs on sep layers), mouth, hair front, hair back, ears, etc. The separate layers make it much easie to grab the relevant parts/ points and move them. So , I guess I'll need to flatten all the layers when I've done animating so as to proceed to the next step below.

heyvern wrote: Now you have one time line one vector layer with all those expressions.


There are two ways to use this...

The first is to just duplicate that layer the same number of times as expressions you need. One for each. Delete all the keys except one for each duplicate layer.

Put all those layers in one switch layer. Name each layer what it represents. Now you can just key the switch for each expression on the time line.

-vern

Yes, switch layer, hadn't thought about using that -
however, I need to morph from one expression to the next gradually so there's no sudden jump - will it morph ok when there's a whole pile of overlayed complicated paths all on one layer?
Guess I could try it and see, though, if there's no quick way to get everything into one layer (we can't 'flatten' layers, can we, as in Photoshop, or Illustrator?) then it could take time.

heyvern wrote: The second option would be to apply that first layer to a bunch of actions. Delete those "extra" key frames for each action so you only have one "expression" keyed on frame 1 of each action. Name the actions to match the facial expression.
-vern

That was/is my plan, but I'm finding, since AS appears not to have been designed with layers in mind - at least as far as making actions are concerned - that the multi-layered artwork approach, though useful, has pitfalls, too.

heyvern wrote: I look at files I did when I first started using it... YIKES! What a mess.
-vern

Any general advice about AS work flow do's and don't 's re head/figure construction - would be welcome - only if you have time!

Thanks for your help!

This forum has saved me hours in getting up to speed so far!

Mac

Yes, switch layer, hadn't thought about using that -
however, I need to morph from one expression to the next gradually so there's no sudden jump - will it morph ok when there's a whole pile of overlayed complicated paths all on one layer?

Absolutely YES!

That is why you start with the original layer with ALL of the different "expressions" or point animation on different key frames.

Because you start with the same layer and all the layers in the switch are identical you can double click the switch layer and under the "Switch" tab set it to interpolate sub-layers.

This will "morph" the switch layers rather than using a "step" interpolation.

The key to maintaining this is not to add, delete, or copy paste points in any of the switch layers. Doing so will "break" them so they don't match. You can also duplicate these switch layers to create more if you need to.

Keep a copy of the original layer somewhere in your file or a backup file that has all of your keys for the switch just in case anything "goes wrong".

There is also another "trick" I have used in the past to create "new" switch layers by "copying" key frames "between" the morphing of two other key frames of two switch layers. I have it documented somewhere in the forum... have to track it down if you are interested.

There is one big drawback to using switches however. You can only use "linear interpolation" on the motion. No ease in or ease out or smooth interpolation.

-vern

heyvern wrote:
Absolutely YES!

This will "morph" the switch layers rather than using a "step" interpolation.
.

Keep a copy of the original layer somewhere in your file or a backup file that has all of your keys for the switch just in case anything "goes wrong".

There is also another "trick" I have used in the past to create "new" switch layers by "copying" key frames "between" the morphing of two other key frames of two switch layers. I have it documented somewhere in the forum... have to track it down if you are interested.
-vern

Thanks - some great info there!

heyvern wrote:
There is one big drawback to using switches however. You can only use "linear interpolation" on the motion. No ease in or ease out or smooth interpolation.

-vern

I've had a few problems with points not morphing 'in step' and causing smooth lines to interpolate in an uneven or jagged fashion - so I took a cue from Darth Furby's head turn with actions tutorial and switched the key interpolation from smooth to linear - everything seems to have been ok since then. I know organic movement is supposed to ease in and out, so I guess I'll have to investigate this further once my deadline is passed.

Thanks for all the help - I'll certainly do a search for that switch tip thread you mentioned.

(Interesting that Greykid said somewhere on this forum they never use switch layers - look forward to seeing their tutorial stuff)

Mac