multi-layered arm prob

Wondering how to accomplish a certain animation task? Ask here.

Moderators: Víctor Paredes, Belgarath, slowtiger

User avatar
slowtiger
Posts: 6241
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:53 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany
Contact:

Re: multi-layered arm prob

Post by slowtiger »

I see the original problem and thought I'd solved it ... but from the movie I can spot 2 new ones.
1. When the body turns the arms/shoulders pop into visibility. I'd do some point animation on their upper end to reflect the perspective change (A.):
Image
2. If the arm is 1 shape only, you'll run into trouble anyway if you try to cover it on itself! (B.)
If this happens, I'd animate the complete scene first, then duplicate the arm, put it into a masking group and mask it so the lower arm shows and covers anything fucked up below.
AS 9.5 MacPro Quadcore 3GHz 16GB OS 10.6.8 Quicktime 7.6.6
AS 11 MacPro 12core 3GHz 32GB OS 10.11 Quicktime 10.7.3
Moho 13.5 iMac Quadcore 2,9GHz 16GB OS 10.15

Moho 14.1 Mac Mini Plus OS 13.5
User avatar
DK
Posts: 2891
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 6:06 am
Location: Australia

Re: multi-layered arm prob

Post by DK »

Wow....very detailed response. Thanks slow. I see what you mean with the arm popping into view. The arms are vector lines consisting of 3 points so I cannot adjust points to match your visual description unfortunately. This is the problem that results from using vector points as arm shapes I am afraid. That said i am not overly concerned about the arms popping into view but more concerned about the shading on the arm parts that have been broken into 2 x seperate pieces for layer order animation.

D.K
User avatar
Víctor Paredes
Site Admin
Posts: 5814
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 12:18 am
Location: Barcelona/Chile
Contact:

Re: multi-layered arm prob

Post by Víctor Paredes »

You can use masking in two ways to get the result you want:
- Mask the arm with a little shape over the shoulder
- Or (only in 9.5) duplicate your arm -one for front, one for back- and mask the front one to hide the "back" part.

Maybe you will need to use smart bones to fix the masking in some angles, but to make that is easy and fast.
Check the file:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/544 ... _mask.anme
Image Image Image Image Image Image
Moho co-owner

Previously Rigged animation supervisor: My father's dragon, Wolfwalkers & Star Wars Visions "Screecher's Reach"
My personal Youtube Channel
User avatar
synthsin75
Posts: 10260
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:20 pm
Location: Oklahoma
Contact:

Re: multi-layered arm prob

Post by synthsin75 »

I'd use a mask to "patch" the elbow then. Have your two piece arm, but a one piece one on top, masked in over the problem elbow. If you're still having trouble when I get home from work, I'll work up an example file.
User avatar
heyvern
Posts: 7042
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 4:49 am

Re: multi-layered arm prob

Post by heyvern »

Okay,
You are using 3 point vectors with a stroke shape for the shading effect yes?
The problem is that if you "hide" a part of the stroke (hide the bicep part for a forearm) it shades the "stumpy end" at the elbow with the round cap which is icky and not correct.

Unfortunately that is how shading effects work. The visible shape gets shaded. Nothing you can do to get around that problem unless you use masking. Masking should be very simple since you are using bones to animate the mask, and all arm parts are exactly the same.

-----------
Here is the download of two sample files for v9.2 and v9.5 demonstrating the effect.

shaded-stroke-two-part-arms-using-masking

You can still use the shoulder "patch" idea if you need to but this solution does the trick for the stroke shading.

There are two options depending on which version of ASP you have. v9.5 is easier to key layer order since you can put the arms in a group layer and still control the vectors inside that group from the parent bone layer. Only 1 layer to order. v9.2 will require reordering both the forearm AND the mask layer.

Anime Studio v9.2
Use the exact same 3 point stroke for the forearm, arm mask, bicep. Turn off masking for all the layers accept the forearm. If you are using masking for other layers in the group, you may need to tweak the mask settings depending on the layer ordering.

Depending on how the masking is set for the bone layer, set the masking for the arm mask stroke. The bone masking setting is important on how the forearm is displayed. If you want a nice round end cap at the elbow set masking to "hide all" and the forearm mask to "add but invisible".
Use the hide edge tool to hide the bicep portion of the mask stroke shape (you want the visible part of the mask to SHOW the forearm and have a nice round cap at the elbow overlap).

At this point masking is set and should be working, but you will need to adjust the mask stroke width as there will be a slight "fringe" around the mask because it's exactly the same width as the arm stroke and a bit of anti-aliasing will peak through around the edges. Just increase the stroke width of the mask shape. It doesn't make a difference how much as long as it is enough to hide the fringe. Remember that the bicep "arm" layer is a FULL arm shape and not masked and will always fill in the arm shape behind the masked forearm. (EDIT: Previously I thought you wouldn't need to worry about the fringe, but no, you do. It would show fringe of the masked bicep over the body if the forearm was above the body. So this step is required.)

Anime Studio 9.5 Nested Layer bone control

If you are using 9.5, you can make layer ordering and set up way easier. Instead of having the forearm and mask layers just loose in the main bone layer and having to move them both in the layer order, put the forearm and mask layers inside another group layer.

In the parent bone layer properties, turn off masking completely on the parent bone layer (not needed any more). Check the "Nested Layer Control" box on the bone tab of the layer settings.

Set the masking of the new "arm group" layer the same as described previously (hide all) and the forearm to "Mask this layer" and the "mask layer" to "add to mask but keep invisible".
Now you can simply change the order of a single arm group, instead of having to manage 2 layers when reordering.
Last edited by heyvern on Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
heyvern
Posts: 7042
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 4:49 am

Re: multi-layered arm prob

Post by heyvern »

Oops!

One important thing. In the sample file the bicep portion of the arm stroke extends way to far into the body than is needed. This causes the bicep portion of the masked forearm to show through when the arm shape overlaps itself.

Not a problem, just make sure the bicep doesn't go so far in behind the body so that the forearm won't overlap itself.
User avatar
DK
Posts: 2891
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 6:06 am
Location: Australia

Re: multi-layered arm prob

Post by DK »

OMG! Vern....Thank you so much for that masking solution! It worked amazingly well.
I owe you a beer!!!!!!

Cheers
D.K
User avatar
DK
Posts: 2891
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 6:06 am
Location: Australia

Re: multi-layered arm prob

Post by DK »

Just wanted to say thanks to all the replies to this thread.

I thought I better explain a few things about Verns solution and why it worked.....I needed to use a different way of masking the arm as the conventional patch did not work. Otherwise I would not have posted such a simple problem to the forum.
The reason a simple patch would not work is that the body consisted of a moving texture in the underlying shape that was controlled by bones. When we tried to apply a shape patch over the shoulder the bone system that controlled the moving texture ripped a visible hole in the shoulder patch texture as the bones moved past it, ( looks like a bug here affecting things we can't be sure).

Vern's solution avoided using a patch completely and is freaking amazing in it's simplicity!

Many thanks again to all those who replied!
D.K
User avatar
heyvern
Posts: 7042
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 4:49 am

Re: multi-layered arm prob

Post by heyvern »

I just want to point out that 9.5 and nested layer bone control is what makes this technique waaaay less messy.

I have several characters using masking for body parts like arms and legs. Keying layer order was a MAJOR PIA! In some cases I had to reorder up to 4 layers for each part! It was a freaking nightmare. Now I can really simplify this by grouping those parts.

In the sample file, WITHOUT nested control, you would have to redorder 2 layers for each arm part, forearm, forearm mask, bicep, bicep mask.

Now with nested control, each body part to reorder is neatly, nicely reduced back down to one single group layer to move in the layer palette. PLUS your masking options are WAY improved. You can have SEPARATE masking in the arm group layers and no masking is required in the parent layer if you don't need it.
Post Reply