AS feature discussion - AS more than "Cut out" sty

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synthsin75
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Post by synthsin75 »

I do not think FBF is a style per say, like hand drawn, cutout, stop motion etc.
Once again, if you admit that a source like the Toon Boom site is adequate industry standard, which you've already implied, then this quote from that site states quite clearly that they do consider FBF an animation style.
Toon Boom Studio offers true animation features designed to facilitate the creation of any styles of animation, including traditional frame-by-frame animation, keyframe animation, cut-out, photo animation and live-action cartoon.
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GCharb
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Post by GCharb »

Hello Vern

I would like that you do not deform what I said about AS all along, I was pretty consistant in my saying that AS is a cutout animation software.

I do not thing Mike intended switch layers to be used for FBF hand animation and point motion are standard in all the cutout workflow I have used and on pretty much all the softwares I have reffered to on this lenghty discussion.

All these softwares could use switch layers, or whatever the name of the similar tool they have to do hand drawn animation, users do not use them for that because most of these softwares have dedicated FBF hand drawn animation tools.

I asked you in what way AS workflow is any different then the cutout workflow in any of the softwares I have mentionned, would you care to ellaborate on that subject?

Yes, these softwares all have similar features, for cutout animation, you break down the character, you rig it, then you animate. The thing is that most of these software have hand drawn FBF animation tools as well, while AS has none. Since switch layers are not ment for hand drawn FBF animation, that technique can only be seen, at least from my point of vue, as a workaround.

And no, switch layers are not FBF hand drawn animation tool, it is a switch layer tool, which was intended as a mean to change parts of a character structure as you animate. Smart peoples tought of using it as an freehand animation tool, which is way cool, but still a workaround on one of the software limitations.

Vern, seems to me you have an aversion of cutout animation, so, even if I get a hundred professional animators to come here and explain these fundamental concepts to you, you will dismiss them all. That is your choice, I try to keep an open mind on technology.

Synth, classical frame by frame animation is hand drawn animation, like in a disney movie, has nothing to do with cutout animation. Like I said in previous post, you do cutout and keyframe every frames, in essence you are doing FBF animation.

Gilles
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Post by Rudiger »

GCharb wrote:... point motion are standard in all the cutout workflow I have used...
I think now this is the only point of difference we have left. I don't think you can just say that point animation is just an aspect of the cutout workflow. It is a fundamental feature in its own right. I have used several animation programs that only offer bone animation without any point motion and vice-versa. They are too completely different concepts and it is my view that the term "cutout" really only applies to bone animation (and if I was being really strict, bone animation without joint warping). I guess if we are going to agree to disagree, that is the point we should agree to disagree on.
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synthsin75
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Post by synthsin75 »

I've already tried explaining that, Rudiger. Like the examples GCharb gave for cutout, none of them had any true 'warping' of shapes. Just the equivalent of each layer being bound to a single bone, with some ungodly workarounds for handling bad joints.

GCharb,

I'd still love to see any references you can find that clearly utilize point motion and are still called strictly cutout style. (Like a cutout animation with an in-camera head turn rather than the quick HB switch between views.) I think one of the problems here is that AS, even if we admit a cutout workflow, produces results on a par with traditional, full animation. An animation style is best judged by its results rather than its method. If you can't distinguish the results, then the method used doesn't tell the whole story.
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GCharb
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Post by GCharb »

Hello all

I perfectly understand both your point of views, you are both saying that cutout animation is only, and truly joint motion, no point motion or any other form of animation. In your perspective, cutout cannot employ stretch and squash for example. Are we clear on that?

The problem is that most human, and I am one of them, need to classify pretty much everything. The fact is, that the industry classified this type of animation as cutout style animation, which is the term I have been using all along.

The style part of that assumption comes from the fact that this is not cutout per say, this is obviouslly not cardboard or paper or whatever other medium that was cut-out to create shapes. It has been reffered to as cut-out because it reproduces that medium.

True, computer added some flexibility to the process, we can change colors, or shapes of the cut-outs pretty easilly, nevertheless, the principles of it are the same. In all of the classic mediums for animation, which one AS style comes close to?

Can you reproduce beauty and the beast ball room scene in AS? Was it build for stopmotion? If AS is not cut-out style animation, what is it then?

Computer animation has not reinvented the wheel, the computer is merelly a tool that helps in making a rather tedious, although fun task, animation, faster and more accessible to the masses.

Even 3D, isn't it nothing more then a computerized version of puppeteering or stopmotion with a dash of classical animation?

Now, look at all the animation software terms out there, they all come from old classical animation terms. You can find pretty much all of these terms in classic books from either Disney or Blair. Of course, some terms we're added to suits the need of that new medium, but most of these terms come from classical type of animation.

Synth, you are not honnest when you say I havnt shown you anything with point motion that reffers to cut-outs in my previous posts. In a pm I pointed you to this website, asked you to watch the trailers, even asked you to go on the creator's blog.

Those are reffered to in that cutout pdf I posted, you can even see the Eric character pose setup in the pdf, this is cut-out in the industry and it uses tons of motion points.

Again, computers brought some flexibility to this type of animation compared to the cut-out used in old style film version. Just like old style film version brought flexibility to the ancient form of cut-out animation the chinese have been doing for centuries.

Changes in the medium does not make it less cut-out style.

Now let me be clear on something, I never suggested that AS becomes a hand drawn animation, I am just asking for a little more flexibility, as I suggested in my first post.

Gilles
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Post by F.M. »

Like Popeye said: I believe what I believe and is all I believe. :lol: :lol: :lol: :roll: :roll: :shock: :shock:
"and then Man created god!"
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GCharb
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Post by GCharb »

Like Popeye said: I believe what I believe and is all I believe.
LOL, true to that! :)
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Post by slowtiger »

Gentlemen, please. I just zipped over this rather fruitless discussion of definition of terms. My opinion: I don't give a damn what the program is called. I just know that it's one of the best 199 $ I ever spent.

As most of you know, my background includes every animation technique expect 3D, from stop motion to cutouts to flash to frame-by-frame drawing, with bitmaps as well as with vectors. So I feel qualified to give this definition:

AS mainly works by manipulating 2D elements, be them bitmaps or vectors, which exist for the entire duration of the file. (You may call them cutouts if you're inclined to.) Everything else, like point motion, bones, image warping, the ability to share lines between separate objects: that's all just details, or the icing on the cake.

It's no sense to deny that basic functionality. What really counts is: how good are the tools I use to maniulate the elements? If they can be improved, please improve them. If there's other basic concepts which may be better than the actual ones, let's discuss them. If there's a concept really badly missing, let's add it, if possible.

(Back to our regular threads.)
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GCharb
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Post by GCharb »

I second the motion!

Gilles
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synthsin75
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Post by synthsin75 »

Like I said, I'd agree that the AS workflow is cutout. So in that regard, AS is a cutout tool. This is just misleading considering that you can produce results on par with traditional animation (including a fair go at that Beauty & the Beast ballroom dance scene, IMO).

Just try to keep in mind that many prospective AS customers (the majority I assume) are not in the animation industry and do not know these distinctions. Cutout means South Park to a majority of these potential customers.

I greatly appreciate your soft-handed take on the issue, Slowtiger. I think you set a good example for not trying to brow beat the lay-animator with industry specific terminology.

For a hobbyist/one-man studio focused app, it couldn't hurt to characterize thing the way the average user would understand them.
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GCharb
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Post by GCharb »

Hello again

This is going nowhere, let's end it if you dont mind!

Gilles
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GCharb
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Post by GCharb »

Hello again

Normally I do not answer publiclly to a private message, but I wil make an exception, sorry for those, who like me, think that private messages should stay private.

Someone, I will not say who, sent me a pm message saying that I was bull-headed and an elitist spreading nonsense. This was one of many pm messages where I was insulted with words like bastard and the such. Here is my response.

If I was an elitist I would use a 3000$ piece of software with 5000 pages of manuals and I would spend my time on forums covering such software. Instead I choose to use AS, a truly great piece of software with a user base composed of hobbiest and pros alike, nothing elitist there.

Reffering to the animation industry to make a stand for something I believe to be true does not mean I am an elitist, or bullheaded. It only means that I am true to my convictions and that I want to found my statements on solid grounds.

I have shown many documents clearly demonstrating that AS type of animation was cutout style animation, some disagree with that statement, that is all fine, everyone is entitled to their opinions.

Cutout style animation is the same type of animation used in hundreeds of tv shows around the world, AS can do those easily, many AS users prooved it.

But I am still waiting for any solid evidence that AS style of animation is not cut-out animation as it is used in the industry, actually I have demonstrated just that. In that respect, why should I change my views on the subject?

To be an elitist mean that you solelly believe in a set of rules established by an elite group.

There are no rules in animation, animation is a way to express yourself, there can be no rules about expressing yourself. But one must admit that there are clear foundations in the ways animations are made on computers and to say thas AS evades those basic principles is just silly, and that is, from my pointy of vue, an elitist statement.

As for being bullheaded, who's the bulheaded one, the one who brings facts and concise examples to make his point, or the one who get's so frustrated that he keeps sending pm with insults?

I will let you be the judge!

Everyone is entitled to his or her opinions, but when it get to a point where peoples get hangry and send punds and insults then the democratic process get's kicked in the butt.

I am mostlly reffering to one indiviudual here, of course I do not imply that the AS community is filled by such individuals, quite the opposite. Over the last few weeks I was witness to a thriving community with the pros helping the newbies and I liked what I saw.

Lastlly, I would like, as a long time software user, give a small advice. A piece of software is only a tool, a tool to get you where you want go. Let not something as impersonal as a piece of software, even a great one, get you all worked up every time someone says something that does not agree with your views on the said software. This cannot be healthy, not from my point of vue at least.

I will not get treated like a moron and insulted just because I stand by my beliefs, so, I am asking peoples not to post on this thread anymore, let it die, it is useless anyways. Of course, you can still post in it if you want to, but I see no point in it personally.

Happy animating everyone.

Gilles
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synthsin75
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Post by synthsin75 »

Hi there. The private messages GCharb refers to are mine, and since he's chosen to take this conversation public, I'll just reply here.

While I surely did say you were bull-headed, I didn't say 'elitist spreading nonsense'. What I did say was that not being able to even consider the common understanding of cutout, to all the millions of people who are not in the animation industry, was elitist nonsense. I never said that your view of cutout was not valid within the terminology of the industry.

If you have problems with the English language you should either admit it, or try to take that into account when replying.
But I am still waiting for any solid evidence that AS style of animation is not cut-out animation as it is used in the industry
This is what I mean by being elitist. You can only think in terms of 'the industry'. You can't even for a moment realize that cutout means something, perhaps less precise, to the non-industry animator and general public.

I think the only real problem I, and others, have had here is that you totally refuse to see how calling AS a strictly cutout tool does, in fact, mean something else to the common person. And AS just so happens to be a less 'industry' tool at the moment.

That is the definition of elitist. You have consistently ignored this point in our PMs. Apparently, to you, the common understanding of the general public doesn't exist and isn't worth considering.
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Post by banjar »

mkelley wrote:I actually agree with Gillis description of AS as a "cutout animation" tool -- and want it to stay that way. Frame by frame tools should NOT be added to AS. I don't want Mike to waste any time doing that any more than I want him to waste time making AS a Flash alternative.....
What we do need is for AS to improve upon its "cutout animation" tools -- make them even better.
I am all in favor of this suggestion.
mkelley wrote:I firmly believe Mike should not even slightly consider FBF enhancements. Anyone who needs this can pick any one of a dozen or more programs that do this and use them in conjunction with TB. What AS *should* do is improve bones, improve vector morphing, improve scripting, add functionality to the interface, etc. etc. etc. There's a ton of stuff on Mike's plate that takes WAY higher precedence.
But I don't agree with this statement simply because I WANT IT ALL!!! MORE, MORE, EVER MORE COOL FEATURES!!!!!!

But, are you saying that Smith Micro is so cheap that they only have one programmer working on Anime Studio code? Oh, we are doomed! Doomed, I say. Maybe even Toon Doomed.
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Post by heyvern »

banjar wrote: But, are you saying that Smith Micro is so cheap that they only have one programmer working on Anime Studio code? Oh, we are doomed! Doomed, I say. Maybe even Toon Doomed.
One programmer created and maintained Moho and AS for all the years of its existence. Don't be so dramatic. SM is not being "cheap". They have the best man for the job.

-vern
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