As Pro 8 vs Toon Boom AP 2

Shepard · Post by **Shepard** » Fri Jul 01, 2011 2:47 pm

Hi, my name is Angelo and I'm an italian boy 22 years old.
Sorry for my bad english

I study computer science, and for this summer I will divert with cartoon animation in South Park's style (therefore with animations not particularly perfect).

I already have read this thread: viewtopic.php?t=10124&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

but it's 2 years old, and now the two software are upgrade in Anime Studio Pro 8 and Toon Boom Animate Pro 2, introducing new features.

So I decided to open this new thread.

I state: I've never done animation before! I'm totally inexpert in this field.

Which software is more indicate for me? AS Pro 8 or Toon Boom AP 2?

I have see the "Tour video" in the homepage of AS Pro 8 and hit me the possibility to record the audio in real time and sync the lips totally in automatic!!
In Toon Boom AP 2 I don't know if I can record the audio, and for the lips sync there is a specific method (therefore don't is automatic as AS Pro 8 ).

Also, in the previously thread that I have linked, someone wrote that in AS Pro 8 it's possible to drag a point and drawing directly from a primitive figure, helping who (as me) can't to draw, creating easily a figure, dragging the point with the mouse.

You confirmed theese two features? Are available also in Toon Boom Animate Pro 2 or not?

I know that this is a AS'forum for AS'discussion, so you can might be ever AS' fans, but I ask you an objective opinion: for a beginner of digital animations (as me) it's better AS Pro 8 or Toon Boom AP 2? The price isn't a problem.

I have also another question: if I import a 2D character from a PSD file (created in Photoshop for example) can I create bones and animate the arts of this? Or for create animations with my characters I must draw them only directly in AS or Toon Boom?

Again, for example, if I have to turn the head of my character from front to side, how I show the side of head if my imported character is 2D?
I must create a new level with the side of head or I just move the head with bone?
The result that I would is like this:

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/3002/esempio.png

I know that the animation frame to frame is available only on Toon Boom..in AS Pro 8 as I can do this head's movement?

Thanks and sorry again for my bad english!

GCharb · Post by **GCharb** » Fri Jul 01, 2011 5:43 pm

Easy, if you are looking for a frame by frame animation software, then Toonboom is what you need, with it you get better drawing tools, better colour registration, you get a node based compositor with advanced effects and compositor, better content management, better 3d environment, better timeline tools, better morphing tools.

It is also much pricier, rigging can be quite tedious, no bones, limited scripting, much less scripts/plug-ins available, community much less active, takes much more time to do anything, slower at render, I find render quality of less quality then ASP, much more complicated to use, no character wizard(LOL).

ASP on the other hand is much cheaper, has bones, easier to set-up a character, you can do much more with it then the manual or basic functions lead you to believe, fast render, works well with Photoshop, image warp, tons of available scripts, huge and very active community, sometimes you get users to actually create or modify an existing script to specific needs or to resolve bugs, you get to communicate with the head programmer, and much more.

If you are looking for something that will allow you to make pro grade animation on a budget and fast, if you do not need frame by frame animation, then ASP is the way to go!

Shepard · Post by **Shepard** » Fri Jul 01, 2011 6:16 pm

Thanks.
For example, I see this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36FuH84n ... re=related

The boy, cut the parts of the character and rig them.
I also read this guide: http://www.animationcraft.blogspot.com/ ... nboom.html

In this guide (3 parts: building, rigging and animating) all seems very easy!

-Do a character, scan it, cut all parts, create the frame..and...finish! Obviously, there are scenery, camera, etc...ok.

AS works similar?

Because, in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxxGDJspptQ

The bones are create automatically from a imported character...However can I "cut" the arts as is possible to do in Toon Boom and create more bones? In that video 1 bones = 1 art... It's possible, for example, create 2 bones: 1 for crank and 1 for hand?

And how AS works with an imported character?

Thanks....and sorry for all theese questions

crsP · Post by **crsP** » Sat Jul 02, 2011 11:26 am

Hello, I am a non-Italian man. Scusi il mio italiano del povero. Or something.

You should probably ignore any "Toon Boom VS Anime Studio" discussion, as usually, people mix and match between the different Toon Boom apps to argue their points [whether for or against].

The bottom line is, if you want to do South Park styled animations, then you can do that in both Animate [pro and non pro] and Anime Studio [pro or debut]. For South Park characters, you don't need bones, but you can use them if you want to. GCharb points out that Animate Pro has no bones [if you can trust a French speaker...], but with the South Park characters, you only need to put them in a hierarchy [limbs as children of body, etc.].

Money is no object for you, but as you state you only want to do South Park style stuff, I would suggest Anime Studio Pro [or even debut]. The auto-lip-sync in ASP does not produce good results. I don't know if TBAP has auto lip-sync, but Toon Boom Studio does. With South Park style, you can just have the three mouth positions and use a script to randomly cycle through them, if you don't care about the quality.

Whether you go for ASP or TBAP, you can import bitmaps from Photoshop, but neither app will take the front view and transform it into a side view, and vice versa. You have to draw these yourself [and any other angle] in Photoshop. And if you are doing it in South Park style, there doesn't seem any advantage to me of not doing this within ASP or TBAP rather than importing from Photoshop. They are just mainly geometric shapes [circle for head, hands, triangle mouths, etc.], so why bother with the extra step of Photoshop?

Here's a youtube video for South Park animation done in Anime Studio. He provides the files for you as well, so you can see how it's done. He also shows how he animates the characters, so you can get a good idea of what you need to do in AS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sM-PcrOXlXA

GCharb · Post by **GCharb** » Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:00 pm

crsP wrote:GCharb points out that Animate Pro has no bones [if you can trust a French speaker...]

No you can't!

Diana Kennedy · Post by **Diana Kennedy** » Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:41 pm

GCharb wrote:
crsP wrote:GCharb points out that Animate Pro has no bones [if you can trust a French speaker...]
No you can't!

Definitely not.

Shepard · Post by **Shepard** » Sat Jul 02, 2011 3:43 pm

Thanks, thanks crsP, your answer is very exhaustive!
Ok, I respond point to point:

The bottom line is, if you want to do South Park styled animations, then you can do that in both Animate [pro and non pro] and Anime Studio [pro or debut]. For South Park characters, you don't need bones, but you can use them if you want to. GCharb points out that Animate Pro has no bones [if you can trust a French speaker...], but with the South Park characters, you only need to put them in a hierarchy [limbs as children of body, etc.].

Mmh...maybe in first episode... Over time, episode for episode, South Park's animations have become very complex (at least for me

).

I think that, for example, for move an arm from bottom to top, and at the same time, the hand, they use the bones...it's very boring frame by frame with poses...

Money is no object for you, but as you state you only want to do South Park style stuff, I would suggest Anime Studio Pro [or even debut]. The auto-lip-sync in ASP does not produce good results. I don't know if TBAP has auto lip-sync, but Toon Boom Studio does. With South Park style, you can just have the three mouth positions and use a script to randomly cycle through them, if you don't care about the quality.

Yes, it's right! The feature of auto lips sync are present also in Toon Boom Animate Pro.
However, aren't only 3 poses for the lips...are more. Watch an episode for an example.

Whether you go for ASP or TBAP, you can import bitmaps from Photoshop, but neither app will take the front view and transform it into a side view, and vice versa. You have to draw these yourself [and any other angle] in Photoshop. And if you are doing it in South Park style, there doesn't seem any advantage to me of not doing this within ASP or TBAP rather than importing from Photoshop. They are just mainly geometric shapes [circle for head, hands, triangle mouths, etc.], so why bother with the extra step of Photoshop?

It's right, it's right, but I must be sure. If I import a character .png (or other) in Anime Studio, can I "cut" the arms and associate their the bones?

Finally, I read theese discussion:

viewtopic.php?t=4469
viewtopic.php?p=23245#23245

Are theese the ways to create a character that (for example) turn the head as the image in my first post?

In this videotutorial of Toon Boom: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36FuH84nM_0

man shows that there are 4 poses in 1 layer: what does it mean?! How are 4 poses in 1 layer if, usually, 1 layer corrisponding to 1 pose?

Scusi il mio italiano del povero.

Ehehehehe!!! In Italian language, first the subject and then the adjective

Right phrase is: "Scusi il mio povero italiano"

But English is mooooore important than Italian, for my misfortune

Thanks again for the future answers, in this forum the users are very comprehensive with beginners like me.
I have read discussions and discussions in this forum, all discussions are rich of answers, like this

You are great!

jahnocli · Post by **jahnocli** » Sat Jul 02, 2011 4:03 pm

Shepard wrote:It's right, it's right, but I must be sure. If I import a character .png (or other) in Anime Studio, can I "cut" the arms and associate their the bones?

Scusi il mio povero italiano... *Probably* the easiest way to do this is to cut up the body parts (sounds gruesome!) in Photoshop and then import the file as .png fragments from there.

Shepard · Post by **Shepard** » Sat Jul 02, 2011 5:12 pm

Mmh...yes...it's a good idea. If this is the only way, Toon Boom is better than Anime Studio.

Post by **Víctor Paredes** » Sat Jul 02, 2011 5:32 pm

Shepard wrote:Mmh...yes...it's a good idea. If this is the only way, Toon Boom is better than Anime Studio.

It's important how fast you can rig and animate the character. For example, just yesterday I had to animate some scenes for an animatic:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/54411/videos/cu ... imatic.mov
Illustration were made by other guy in Photoshop (in AS8 you can import layered PSD files, so there is no need of having independent png files anymore). I imported that layered files and the rigging and animation took me around 15 minutes for each scene.
I don't know Toon Boom so much, but I really know the pros and limitations of AS and I'm certainly sure there isn't other software able to challenge that time.

Shepard · Post by **Shepard** » Sat Jul 02, 2011 6:52 pm

O.O you are selgin?

You're a God for beginners like me

I have read many yours tutorial! That video it's very cool, pretty animations

There's tutorial for theese?

However, 15 minutes for cut and rig arts are few, yes...but you have experience with AS...
What technic have you used for this? Each layer for each limb or another method?

However, waiting answers for the precedent questions, I have also another 2 questions:

1. I'm trying AS, and I'm watching (and following) this tutorial: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMTo_DNWD9A

In 2:40, the guy makes the tongue, and it is behind the teeth, in the same level!
I try to do this, but tongue is in front of the teeth! Why? I do the same things!

2. You say that in AS can't do animation frame by frame...why? I see the temporal line and this have a frame for second...
So I think that we can do frame by frame..right?

benny666 · Post by **benny666** » Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:10 pm

jahnocli wrote: Scusi il mio povero italiano...

"Scusate il mio Italiano scadente" or "Scusate il mio cattivo Italiano" is the exact phrase!:-)

crsP · Post by **crsP** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 2:27 pm

Yes, AS can do frame by frame animation. The problem is it is not built for this, so it can get frustrating, that's why TBA is recommended over AS if you are going to do a lot of this type of animation. In AS you make frame by frame by [bye bye] creating the frames on their own layer. You put all these frames in a group layer known as a switch layer. On the timeline, when you want to show a frame, you right click the switch layer and choose the frame you want to 'expose'. Of course you end up with a lot of layers this way. Also you don't get good onion skinning with transparent frames like in other frame by frame apps - you can see the construction curve, or the full vectors.

Look for selgins techniques for head turns. In the case of simulating head turns in AS, you need the characters constructed out of vectors. This is why importing from Photoshop wont work [or any other bitmap program]. The principle simplified can be imagines as a coin spinning. When the coin is facing the viewer directly, it is a circle [i.e looking at the 'head' or the 'tail']. At 90 degree rotation, you are seeing its side, which looks like a rectangle. At 45 degrees [the inbetween] it is an oval. And so if you create these 3 shapes and morph between them, you get the impression of the coin spinning, or turning.

GCharb · Post by **GCharb** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 3:21 pm

Shepard wrote:O.O you are selgin?

You're a God for beginners like me

Ok, selgin is officialy a deity now, I would like his thought on that!

Shepard wrote:1. I'm trying AS, and I'm watching (and following) this tutorial: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMTo_DNWD9A

In 2:40, the guy makes the tongue, and it is behind the teeth, in the same level!
I try to do this, but tongue is in front of the teeth! Why? I do the same things!

It has to do with shape order, you just need to select the shape of the tongue with the shape select tool(Q), then go in the draw menu and click on raise shape, you may need to raise a few time.

This is best done at creation, as new shapes are drawn on top of previous shapes.

Shepard wrote:2. You say that in AS can't do animation frame by frame...why? I see the temporal line and this have a frame for second...
So I think that we can do frame by frame..right?

You can, there is a plug-in that can help with that, but AS was not designed for it, it was designed for cut-out, or limited animation. It is the ingenuity of some users and the dedication of scripters that makes fbf possible, even though somewhat tedious.

Shepard · Post by **Shepard** » Sun Jul 03, 2011 5:45 pm

crsP wrote:Yes, AS can do frame by frame animation. The problem is it is not built for this, so it can get frustrating, that's why TBA is recommended over AS if you are going to do a lot of this type of animation. In AS you make frame by frame by [bye bye] creating the frames on their own layer. You put all these frames in a group layer known as a switch layer. On the timeline, when you want to show a frame, you right click the switch layer and choose the frame you want to 'expose'. Of course you end up with a lot of layers this way. Also you don't get good onion skinning with transparent frames like in other frame by frame apps - you can see the construction curve, or the full vectors.

Look for selgins techniques for head turns. In the case of simulating head turns in AS, you need the characters constructed out of vectors. This is why importing from Photoshop wont work [or any other bitmap program]. The principle simplified can be imagines as a coin spinning. When the coin is facing the viewer directly, it is a circle [i.e looking at the 'head' or the 'tail']. At 90 degree rotation, you are seeing its side, which looks like a rectangle. At 45 degrees [the inbetween] it is an oval. And so if you create these 3 shapes and morph between them, you get the impression of the coin spinning, or turning.

Thanks for this explanation

And thanks also to GCharb.

For now, I haven't other questions