Layer, shape, group coordinates - My brain hurts.

[SimonM7]

Hi there! Short time lurker, first time caller!

I'm very new to Anime Studio, and I've gone through the tutorials and have a fairly basic grip on what is going on. For my first project I'm making a little "music video" with a lady singing and... swaying back and forth a little. It's extremely simple and a good place to start.

I built the character and put in some bones I could pull on to make her pose, but now I'm noticing something that has me completely confused.

It started when I copied one of her arms, flipped it horizontally and tried to add bones to it. The bones wouldn't "stick" to the arm unless I bound points manually, and when I changed between frame 0 to frame 1 to have her offset parts come together, the new arm changed position even though I'd never repositioned it.

I'm also noticing that if I create a shape on a new layer, and put that in an earlier layer group, it jumps to what I assume is a position relative to the center of that group (?). From what I understand, it seems like AS always remember where I first drew a thing, and if I move it on layer 0 within a layer group, it'll always secretly wish it was there? Does this mean I can't create elements of a character - limbs or objects of some kind - broken apart from a other parts of it, add bones to it and then stick it in a layer group, to lastly be offset with the Offset Bone tool and join with my character?

I'm sure it doesn't help that I'm trying to understand this at 3am, but it's driving me loopy.

This post is a bit all over the place, but I guess what I don't understand is the relationship between shape, layer and layer group coordinates. Ideally I'd like to be able to keep building new elements of the character on frame 0 and add those in, but it's very unpredictable with my current lacking understanding. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[SimonM7]

Anndddd I just noticed that the arm I copied, moved away and flipped horizontally still has the same coordinates as the other arm. That's my brain turned to jelly.

Explains why the bones were *mega confused*. Explains nothing to me, though! Oh boy.

[funksmaname]

Hi Simon, welcome to the forum

the bit that has me confused here is "add bones to it and then stick it in a layer group, to lastly be offset with the Offset Bone tool"

I think you may be over complicating matters... maybe to try and understand how it works just use a single bone layer with vector layers beneath - the strange placement of things will either be errant bone influence or unwanted parenting to another bone. Use the bone parenting tool to make sure your parenting is correct, and where you've manually bound points, other bones have zero influence. The bone offset tool is used to offset parts that are not near each other to their intended place (which is what you wanted for your offset limbs or objects) for frames >1

Not sure if anything helpful here, but you might want to post a file for people to see what you've been getting up to so they can nudge you in the right direction
Alternatively, strip it down to the basics and use very basic shapes to experiment with until you have a handle on how to rig stuff (there are many ways for different situations, no one right way fortunately and/or unfortunately )

Good luck!

[SimonM7]

Hi! Thanks!

And thanks for the reply!

Yeah it's a bit of an erratic post on the subject. There are so many variables in play - so many concepts working in tandem, it's hard to know how to start untangling it. Especially at 3 in the morning!

But okay, coffee powered explanation time.

the bit that has me confused here is "add bones to it and then stick it in a layer group, to lastly be offset with the Offset Bone tool"

The first thing I did was assemble a character the way I wanted her to look, on frame 0, without a bone layer. Just vector layers. I only made one of each element I'd mirror to her other side. One arm, one leg, one eye - etc. I put some of them in layer groups when there were several elements I knew I would want to animate. Eyelids + the eyeball and iris, for instance. Some I kept separate.

Then I created copies of most of the elements and flipped them - except for her arm. I knew I would want to do more detail work, but I also wanted to start creating the skeleton for the character, because I wanted to begin figuring out how to solve different aspects of the outfit and whatnot when things started animating.

I created the bone layer and put my vector layers into it. I offset the different parts and added bones to them. Everything worked fine.

The first issue I started having was when I copied her arm, pasted into a new vector layer and flipped that. I did this on frame 0, with the character broken apart. When I tried to add a bone with the automatic binding, it wouldn't attach to the arm at all. I eventually solved it with manual point binding and got it to work, but I never understood why it wouldn't work in the first place.

And that's where I was before last night's post. The thing that prompted my posting last night was that I realised that moving a vector layer into a group layer, the moved layer "jumps" to a different position based on the group layer. This is worrisome, because I thought I'd be able to create more elements and do more detail work on frame 0 after the character was broken apart. Perhaps this is not the case?

Now that I look at the coordinates for her arm - the copied vector layer - when selected with the Transform Points tool, they are the same for both arms. X: -0.9278 Y: 0.3362 Even though they're on opposite sides of her body when offset, even further apart on frame 0, and in both cases on different sides of the centre of the document.



This is... baffling. I just... I don't even know where to begin unraveling that mystery. But it does explain why trying to add bones to it didn't work. It seems the bone - although visibly on top of the arm - couldn't actually find it at that position.

This gets real dense real fast when I try to explain it. I don't know if this is a bug, perhaps?

[Greenlaw]

Hi,

Are you using a recent Anime Studio, specifically 9.5 or 10? If so, I agree with Funksmaname in that you may be making this more complicated than necessary. I noticed that you're breaking apart your character--this technique is more or less obsolete with recent versions of ASP. Nowadays you should rig with your character's elements 'in place' and use the Use Selected Bones For Flexi Binding command instead. IMO, this method is much simpler and the results are more predictable for most common character rigging situations.

If you're using version 10, I suggest taking a look at the Pirate Girl rig and picking it apart for reference. Most of the rig is pretty straight forward, but you'll want to un-hide all the bones to see how some of the more advanced parts of the rig works (like the 'fake collision' in the skirt).

BTW, I know how you feel--I went through the same frustration a couple of years ago, trying to figure out the 'correct' and most efficient workflow. This can be difficult because there is much information out there for Anime Studio that is outdated and obsolete. I guess that's the price of progress.

Anyway, for the best and most current source of Anime Studio info, you've come to the right place. Welcome aboard!

G.

[willf]

I created the bone layer and put my vector layers into it. I offset the different parts and added bones to them. Everything worked fine.

The first issue I started having was when I copied her arm, pasted into a new vector layer and flipped that. I did this on frame 0, with the character broken apart. When I tried to add a bone with the automatic binding, it wouldn't attach to the arm at all. I eventually solved it with manual point binding and got it to work, but I never understood why it wouldn't work in the first place.

From this comment it sounds as if you bound her arm vector shapes to the bones before you copied it.

If you want to copy the arm vectors, you need to do it before binding it down to a bone. It sounds as if the arm vector-shape copy was trying to obey two bones at once.

[SimonM7]

Thank you all so much! It's such a relief to have a compass in all of this.

If you're using version 10, I suggest taking a look at the Pirate Girl rig and picking it apart for reference. Most of the rig is pretty straight forward, but you'll want to un-hide all the bones to see how some of the more advanced parts of the rig works (like the 'fake collision' in the skirt).

I am indeed using version 10, and I'll examine the Pirate Girl rig right away. The reason I broke apart the character is that even in the tutorials that came with version 10, they present that as the most convenient solution for more intricate characters. They have you rig that weird.. mutant with the frog legs, and he's all wobbly and horrible when you're finished with their example, so I assumed I didn't want to use that method. Now that I know, I'll dissect their example rigs thoroughly.

Anyway, for the best and most current source of Anime Studio info, you've come to the right place. Welcome aboard!

Super glad to hear it -- thanks again!

From this comment it sounds as if you bound her arm vector shapes to the bones before you copied it.

If you want to copy the arm vectors, you need to do it before binding it down to a bone. It sounds as if the arm vector-shape copy was trying to obey two bones at once.

The way you describe it, I'm 90% sure this is precisely what happened. I haven't gotten a good grasp of how much you can change and tweak on frame 0 once you've rigged your character. I was hoping I could keep adding to it - detail and other elements - even when I had a working rig. Even deciding as I go what vector layers to put in what layer group seems like a bad idea, with layer group seemingly having its own relative positioning in the document. Or maybe that, too, has been affected by my bones?

When I do normal artwork I like to sort of finalise some things - ink, colour - to get an idea of what the end result will look like, and then go back and add/tweak/change things on the sketch. I'm a bit all over the place, and maybe I can't expect to do the same with this.

[SimonM7]

I'm almost done building the character all assembled, and I'll start putting in new bones soon. The coordinate problem went away when I redid all the copy/flipping with no skeleton, so that was likely what caused my problem before.

Quick question. When I want to move elements contained within a layer group, the most convenient way is to use the layer transform tool to move them all at once. However, the transform points tool yields different results in terms of the origin point and such. Is there a way to move a layer group and then somehow have the end result be the same as if I moved each element one by one using the transform points tool, or is this a difference I need to be mindful of and plan ahead for?

[slowtiger]

You need to plan ahead because you can't animate the origin point.

[Greenlaw]

I am indeed using version 10, and I'll examine the Pirate Girl rig right away. The reason I broke apart the character is that even in the tutorials that came with version 10, they present that as the most convenient solution for more intricate characters....

Yeah, that's a pretty good example of what I mean. Breaking apart the character is still a valid technique but it's also an outdated one for ASP 9.5 and 10. For most general rigging situations, there are far better methods for binding points and layers to bones now. For me, the most useful one for deforming layered vector art has been the Use Selected Bones for Flexi-Binding technique mentioned above.

Here's a 9.5 tutorial video on the subject explaining the newer technique's advantage over breaking apart the character: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJ4j51P0uWA

When reading the official user documentation, keep in mind that the manual and tutorial docs have been around for a long time and they contain information that goes back to the earliest versions of Anime Studio...it's not bad information but some of it may be very dated information. (In my opinion, the docs could stand a little bit of editing to reduce new user confusion.)

Hope this helps.

G.

[SimonM7]

You need to plan ahead because you can't animate the origin point.

How do I make sure that things are in order? What tools can I use without messing this stuff up? Do I always need to use the Transform Points tool rather than move layer groups and layers when creating characters?

Hope this helps.

G.

It does! Thanks!


edit: Hmm. I really shouldn't have leapt into a project like this. I constantly feel the need to jump to the bone/animation phase to see how I'll be able to solve something, to then go back and tweak the assets. If it's all gonna half-come apart if I do that, it's better that some cobbled together mini project implodes than this.

[3deeguy]

edit: Hmm. I really shouldn't have leapt into a project like this. I constantly feel the need to jump to the bone/animation phase to see how I'll be able to solve something, to then go back and tweak the assets. If it's all gonna half-come apart if I do that, it's better that some cobbled together mini project implodes than this.

Don't get discouraged. One of my early mistakes was putting projects aside because they were so 'tough' at the time. I put aside a tough project last November. Someone from the forum 'remembered' it so I picked it up again and spent weeks working on it. I should be able to finally publish it tomorrow. Feels great that I got over that hurdle.