Does anyone use Retas Studio?

[JetT]

That's the link to the perpetual page: http://www.clip-studio.com/clip_site/to ... /rs_d_plan
And this one is for subscription: http://www.clip-studio.com/clip_site/tool/items/rs_plan

My Japanese is fading by the day but basically it is saying for 30,000 GOLD (30,000 YEN) you can buy it on digital download and that you will receive your activation code via email or the code is linked to your email (I can't tell) which would make it like the new Toon Boom Harmony (email/password activation). My version uses a USB Key and for that reason I needed Japanese Windows to run it or the driver wouldn't work (not just a Windows language pack) - so if it really is digital only now it might be possible to buy it from that page since they don't need to ship you anything, but I'm not risking it, also the software will be in Japanese.

I know people who bought Clip Studio Paint in Japanese before Celsys added English support, so I'd assume the activation codes aren't region locked or anything.

[synthsin75]

SM sells AS in Japan, so I doubt they would be interested in distributing for their competitor.

Then that would be ridiculous because Retas is nothing like AS, in what way are they supposed to be competitors?

Here is an example I did using Retas, it took me about 15 minutes from cleanup to composite. If I did the same thing even using TVPaint with all my macros it would still take me at least 30 minutes on just the cleanup and creating a shadow stencil. The problem stems from all the white fragments TVPaint doesn't FloodFill which starts racking up time. Retas has a neat little tool to quickly fill in the white gaps.

...

As I say, apples and oranges. Retas is designed to make this process painless, you can do it in any program but Retas automates most of it. SmithMicro should pickup Retas to compete with Toon Boom/TVPaint/Toonz on the hand-drawn front, it would go down a storm in the anime community.

These days Retas can be purchased on subscription or perpetual which I think means no more USB key and now uses internet validation instead, so it shouldn't be a problem to distribute now?

Really? You don't see any comparison or competition over market share by two similarly priced pieces of animation software? AS already competes against TB and Toonz (i.e. in the price range) and I'd seriously doubt Retas is competition for TVPaint. At its price point, AS and Retas both compete for small studios that need time-saving technology. Considering AS trumps Retas in this department, you're right, Retas is no competition.

[JetT]

Really? You don't see any comparison or competition over market share by two similarly priced pieces of animation software?

Syn you clearly haven't used it. You can't compare Retas and AS because that is like comparing classical animation (apples) to cut-out animation (oranges). Like it or not that is a determining factor of what software somebody will use.

AS already competes against TB and Toonz (i.e. in the price range) and I'd seriously doubt Retas is competition for TVPaint.

Competes with TB and Toonz in the cut-out department, not the hand-drawn department. Of course Retas competes with TVPaint, they are both fundamentally targeting the same people, price is not the argument here, the horse is. If TVPaint added support for basic shadow markup layers (blue/green/red) then perhaps TVPaint could wrestle off some of that 90%+ marketshare Retas enjoys in Asia. You can't under estimate how powerful that paint-by-numbers coloring system is.

If anyone from TVPaint reads this, it works like this, an automated hierarchical system:

#1 Black Outline Layer*
#2 Color Layer
#3 Color Trace Line Layer Red* (Highlight)
#4 Color Trace Line Layer Green* (Blacks/Whites)
#5 Color Trace Line Layer Blue* (Shadow)
#6 Sketch Layer

Once you've drawn your final black outline the next step is to mark out where shadow (in blue), highlight (in red) and color separations (in green) are. In Retas when you click on any of the trace lines you are automatically placed on their corresponding layer. For example in the image below (which I did using TVPaint, but you get the idea), notice I marked with green where the whites of the eyes meet the skin because there is no black outline to close the path.





In Retas when you are in PaintMan and are coloring the cel, when you Flood Fill the whites of the eyes Retas will color on top of the color trace lines but under the black lines and it will only color up to the exact point you placed the trace line (the outside edge, it will look like the trace line was absorbed/changed color). In TVPaint I usually get overshooting because of the expand setting unless I mask the entire thing out (like I did with the highlight in the image and stencil lock it).

Here is the toolbar and layer window from Retas to get an idea:

At its price point, AS and Retas both compete for small studios that need time-saving technology. Considering AS trumps Retas in this department, you're right, Retas is no competition.

Tell me how many Japanese animated productions used AS as their main driver again? Retas has 90%+ marketshare, TB/Toonz/Cel/DigiCel/TVPaint/AS/Flash fill that remainder. Not because it's cheap but because it tries to solve as many problems as possible for a particular style of animation as the guy said in the original video posted here.

[synthsin75]

You act as if there is absolutely no overlap between traditional frame by frame animation and anything else. There is a reason that TB and the like have added skeleton animation and AS has added FBF. All these companies know that they are competing for some of the same customers and market share. And the more all these software include features to allow multiple animation techniques, the more they directly compete. To deny this is naïve.

Retas does not compete against anything but FBF software, which actually puts it at a disadvantage in the market. In Asia, where labor is relatively cheap, they don't tend to consider anything but FBF. So it is no surprise that Retas retains the lion's share of that particular market. But in markets where labor costs are higher, time-saving tools are much more valued.

All that said, since AS is making inroads into FBF, why would SM be interested in distributing a software that would soften the market for what they are developing in-house? Whether you disagree about what software are in competition or not, the simple fact is that SM is developing AS to compete, apples to apples, with software like Retas. And when you are spending development budget to do something like that, you don't help flood the market with something you do intend to compete with.

[basementProductions]

Wow, this has developed pretty well without me ^_^

Thanks JetT for the demonstration and the links! 30,000 jpy about $240 USD or 225 EU.
Wow! is it really only 500 JPY a month?? that's crazy cheap!
who knew the software had an entirely new site here?

Someone might be able to cobble together something of an English patch for it from somewhere, maybe from a pre-existing illegitimate version lying around the internet somewhere...

Of course Retas competes with TVPaint, they are both fundamentally targeting the same people, price is not the argument here, the horse is.

I'd have to disagree, in the U.S. price would be a determining factor

Tell me how many Japanese animated productions used AS as their main driver again? Retas has 90%+ marketshare, TB/Toonz/Cel/DigiCel/TVPaint/AS/Flash fill that remainder. Not because it's cheap but because it tries to solve as many problems as possible for a particular style of animation as the guy said in the original video posted here.

That's the idea, anyway, and also why I want to use it if I can, but it needs tutorials and courses in ENGLISH!

In the West, the name is what buys a lot of ppl on AS, it seems, and they move on to Flash, later.
If MS or even Celsys pushed a new English version of Retas as being the premier in Anime production, there would be more sales, i believe.

As far as I can tell, and I am fairly new to both the craft of animation and AS, any in-roads to frame-by-frame cannot come soon enough; something like what Flash has would be ideal, I think. But it still would not replace Retas to me. Retas is built for speed only.
Speed of cleaning, speed of painting, speed of rendering. This may be why it looks like a win '95 program, but it does its job well from what I can tell.

Retas does not compete against anything but FBF software, which actually puts it at a disadvantage in the market. In Asia, where labor is relatively cheap, they don't tend to consider anything but FBF. So it is no surprise that Retas retains the lion's share of that particular market. But in markets where labor costs are higher, time-saving tools are much more valued.

That, and, their and my shared stigma against most things computer-generated

And when you are spending development budget to do something like that, you don't help flood the market with something you do intend to compete with.

Right, my idea is it would offer a far more immediate return to license a well known software like Retas now as opposed to spending r&d funds developing new functionaity for an already operational and popular software like AS. keep them both separate for separate techniques and they would sell both, so long as they keep pushing the anime envelope.

[JetT]

I'd have to disagree, in the U.S. price would be a determining factor. But it [Retas] needs tutorials and courses in ENGLISH!

It's not a determining factor when you're comparing the price of a ripe apple to the price of an unripe orange. Autodesk Sketchbook is pocket money and it has a FBF feature, but you don't see people using it, you don't see people using PAP and that's free, they create more problems than they solve,

If you know how to do frame-by-frame animation and understand how to fill an x-sheet there's nothing much to learn as it's self explanatory. But they have a how-to website here: https://howto.clip-studio.com/library/p ... ann_00_003

If not, then there is nothing Celsys can do, you'll need to hit the books.

In the West, the name is what buys a lot of ppl on AS, it seems, and they move on to Flash, later.

People were using AS before it got that name but again that's comparing ripe apples to unripe oranges, AS isn't Flash it's more like Harmony/Harlequin/Synfig/CelAction, it's Flash that is playing catchup (but remember Flash wasn't intended to be used in that way, so Adobe probably won't bother).

All that said, since AS is making inroads into FBF, why would SM be interested in distributing a software that would soften the market for what they are developing in-house? Whether you disagree about what software are in competition or not, the simple fact is that SM is developing AS to compete, apples to apples, with software like Retas. And when you are spending development budget to do something like that, you don't help flood the market with something you do intend to compete with.

As far as I can tell, and I am fairly new to both the craft of animation and AS, any in-roads to frame-by-frame cannot come soon enough; something like what Flash has would be ideal, I think. But it still would not replace Retas to me. Retas is built for speed only.

Well, I doubt AS will ever be an apples to apples comparison with Retas, I'm never going to say it won't happen, but SM doesn't have the industry access Celsys has. If Retas remains the most intuitive software for speed and nobody releases it in English then all we'll have is a glaring polarization between East and West animation as is happening already. The best stuff that was shown on CN for quite awhile now was made by Studio 4C and you only have to watch their behind-the-scenes to guess what they were using.

If I had to request a feature from any animation software developer, it would have to be the line separation and fill from Retas Studio. Here's how it works:

Fill tool from Retas PaintMan (notice the red/green/blue and more if you wanted squares):


Those colored squares indicate which separation line you want to change color when you fill an area.

Here is an example of a black outline with a blue separation line:


Here is the image filled in with yellow on one side with none of those colored boxes ticked in the fill tool:


And here is the image again this time with the blue box ticked:


It's an exact replacement, to the pixel. So you see why in my previous example, the one with all the hair, only took a minute, you're just clicking while Retas is being a boss. CACANi now has this feature but they are refering to a vector line down the center of the stroke which isn't as precise as Retas total replacement as it fills up to only half the line width one way and half the other way. If AS were to do it, I can't see why they can't refer to the stroke edge instead. The stroke doesn't need to be replaced but the stroke edge simply needs to be referred to on a new COLOR layer, that way any overlapping left over from the color separation line layer can be turned off by turning off the layer.

Something like this:

AS fill tool:


Area to be filled:


Which means this is the outer edge of the stroke:


AS fill tool calculates the extra reference:


Then fills the area:


That would make it as precise as Retas is and probably quicker.

Retas does not compete against anything but FBF software, which actually puts it at a disadvantage in the market. In Asia, where labor is relatively cheap, they don't tend to consider anything but FBF. So it is no surprise that Retas retains the lion's share of that particular market. But in markets where labor costs are higher, time-saving tools are much more valued.

Retas Studio is a time saving pipeline for FBF, from what you say, then releasing it in the US will be a good thing for FBF in the US.

Apologies for long post.

[basementProductions]

Thanks again for the links, JetT. they are most appreciated.
heh, what Google needs to figure out is an image translator

Yeah, it looks like I'm going to have to go over the manuals for myself.

No apologies needed, as your posts have been the most helpful.

Retas Studio is a time saving pipeline for FBF, from what you say, then releasing it in the US will be a good thing for FBF in the US.

Yes, this is why i made this thread, the secret agenda! this software needs to see an English release for the same prices as in Japan! it would probably change the climate of American television animation, and definitely Youtube animation. It might even reach up to Disney and the others, who knows!

I also reaally wanted some good tutorials, which you gave me

So, my next question is this, how necessary is traceman, and do you really need to have one of their select special scanners to do auto-separations or can you import any bitmap??

[JetT]

Any bitmap will work, infact I've never used Traceman but I'll give you a quick tutorial.

Download this image:


Drag it into Traceman and then press Ctrl+2 this will bring up the trace options. Copy my settings here and click the button I circled to trace:


Then press the icon at the top of the toolbar (it looks like a stickman) to toggle separation lines (paint/line mode). Save it and test it out in Paintman.

[basementProductions]

Awesome thanks!

Do you notice a change in performance when using vectors or rasters with stylos/paintman/coreRetas?

By the way, I love the examples you use, Kill la Kill is probably one of my favorites of recent times for its zaniness
Trigger has a really graphic style that I like, too bad more of their work doesn't get aired by CN's toonami.

[synthsin75]

And when you are spending development budget to do something like that, you don't help flood the market with something you do intend to compete with.

Right, my idea is it would offer a far more immediate return to license a well known software like Retas now as opposed to spending r&d funds developing new functionaity for an already operational and popular software like AS. keep them both separate for separate techniques and they would sell both, so long as they keep pushing the anime envelope.

Licensing does not bring in the same revenue. That is what makes development worth the investment. The return is that much better. Also, US studios are not as married to traditional animation, which means any software that solely focuses on FBF has to vie for software budget against software that can accommodate many animation techniques. Why spend $600USD per seat for two programs when you can spend $300 per seat for one and cover any animation technique you need?

[basementProductions]

Of course it doesn't bring the same revenue, there are licensing fees, legal fees, costs of localization, etc.

I only said the return would be immediate as opposed to what may be years spent developing the functionality themselves.

As far as needing more than one piece to do similar processes, you're right. But from the developer's perspective, wouldn't they stand to make more money that way? I may be wrong, but wouldn't that compare with Adobe packaging related products together, while simultaneously selling each piece individually and selling the entire suite, all for different rates? Nobody is very happy with this scheme, much less the subscription-only CC products, but they still sell quite well.
And who's to say if they did assimilate Retas into AS with all its features, that they wouldn't double or even triple the price?

I'm not sure how much traditional is used in the U.S. at this point. I do know that at least a few new series on CN are done traditionally, and from the looks, as are others. Having a viable option for traditional that allows painless coloring and shooting couldn't hurt any studio, however, and it definitely couldn't hurt the quality. But that is my bias toward traditional.

Either way, whether they do or not, or whether they are even considering it is speculation at this point.
Maybe a more effective route bringing this piece Westward would be to ply Celsys for an English version or patch and buy direct.

I'll be honest though, my opinions are biased. I tried AS once and didn't like it, mainly because of the interface. It was very cluttered with features and was too heavy for my machine, I also couldn't find any serious productions that were made with AS, though I may not have been looking in the right places. I didn't like blender at first either, but then I found a good set of tutorials online and watched one of the blender movies, which was very well done. I also grew up on traditional, no cgi or distortions, and that is what I'm used to.

[JetT]

I can see what Syn is saying, but Retas and TVPaint are still going to be 10 years of development ahead of AS when it comes to FBF.

And who's to say if they did assimilate Retas into AS with all its features, that they wouldn't double or even triple the price?

That's a good point, if you have to develop and maintain more features the cost will go up, when that happens it will be no different to buying a combo of your choice but if SM wants to listen to FBF animators then bring it on.

I'm not sure how much traditional is used in the U.S. at this point. I do know that at least a few new series on CN are done traditionally, and from the looks, as are others. Having a viable option for traditional that allows painless coloring and shooting couldn't hurt any studio, however, and it definitely couldn't hurt the quality. But that is my bias toward traditional.

Most shows on CN are outsourced to studios in Mexico, Korea, etc. they just do the storyboard and think they are doing something. Watch any behind the scenes or how it was made, you'll never see them show off the animation department and they actually explicitly say "we then send it off to Korea to be animated". Same with Disney, Nick, etc. So what you're left up with is as Glen Keane described it "just a bunch of talking model sheets".

My problem is this, Harmony is frustrating to do cleanup with and its rendering is terrible, TVPaint is about 3 steps unnessesary when it comes to coloring and that is after spending $700 for the feature more than Retas which does it so perfectly. That's why I'm looking into CACANi which so far is the only other software developer to actually take any notice of this problem. I can do it in Photoshop, Clip Studio and even the freaking Gimp, but not a $1,100 software designed for the job. Though I say nice try with the CTG (Lazybrush) feature how difficult is it to have the option [if blue detected - add pixels to fill area as reference and THEN fill] on a non-aliased fill?

Setup...


Click...


Click...


Until someone does it, doing this stuff in the US will be too costly, take too long and drive people crazy and will continue being outsourced. All the modern Bruce Timm stuff has this aesthetic, it's nothing to do with a Japanese animation style bias or something being better, it's simplty about variety, those that want to do it won't be able to viably at the moment.

[basementProductions]

Most shows on CN are outsourced to studios in Mexico, Korea, etc. they just do the storyboard and think they are doing something. Watch any behind the scenes or how it was made, you'll never see them show off the animation department and they actually explicitly say "we then send it off to Korea to be animated". Same with Disney, Nick, etc. So what you're left up with is as Glen Keane described it "just a bunch of talking model sheets".

Now, I didn't know any of that, and I'm a little disappointed. People talk of shows like Adventure Time like they are something really new because they were done FBF, but if all the main work is shipped out to Korea or who-knows-where... How is that different than Naruto or anything else? How is it even different than Disney cgi cartoons done in 3DSM or another 3d program where the inbetweening is automatic? At least creatives in America are overseeing it from the office with those. And no, I don't have any particular issue with the idea of exporting grunt work, except that it used to be a way inexperienced animators get their feet wet, before all of these art colleges became a thing. But I do have an issue with people making it out like CN studios or Nickelodeon studios are masterful Disney-like production companies if the work you actually see is not performed by them!

I don't see how one small feature as color detection and separation would be different than anything else, but then again, it would take time like everything else. And, more than likely, SM would wait until AS 12 before implementing anything too helpful

Until someone does it, doing this stuff in the US will be too costly, take too long and drive people crazy and will continue being outsourced. All the modern Bruce Timm stuff has this aesthetic, it's nothing to do with a Japanese animation style bias or something being better, it's simplty about variety, those that want to do it won't be able to viably at the moment.

I have to agree with this; and even though they have the manpower and software, most Japanese series don't even begin to reach that kind of quality, for the same reasons. But I think that might come down to funding, or the lack thereof. If some freelancer or hobbyist or a group of us had the time and patience, they would be an internet sensation overnight if they could make even a short film like this!

This is why I think it is so important to release this in English; at $250, it has all one needs to produce really quality stuff. If It's missing anything right now it would be affects, and/or lengthy linear video editing. However, I have located a copy of After Effects 7.0 and Premiere Pro 2.0 for about $40 each, which would fill in nicely and run well on any computer that would run Retas. Also Clip Studio Paint EX/MS 5 EX, being on sale at Amazon for about $75 right now, is probably the best thing I can think of right now for background and matte, just because of the brush engine and perspective tools.

In theory, if you add Blender and Audacity and and one of these, you have a professional production suite for under $500.
Just a matter of time, skill, and patience....

[synthsin75]

I'll be honest though, my opinions are biased. I tried AS once and didn't like it, mainly because of the interface. It was very cluttered with features and was too heavy for my machine, I also couldn't find any serious productions that were made with AS, though I may not have been looking in the right places. I didn't like blender at first either, but then I found a good set of online and watched one of the blender movies, which was very well done. I also grew up on traditional, no cgi or distortions, and that is what I'm used to.

Why then are you posting on a specifically Anime Studio forum? Let me guess. You couldn't find another animation software forum that was anywhere near as active.

At this point, both you and Jet appear to be spammers for Retas. Whether you are or not, certainly you could find a better place to discuss that software with more people who use it.

[basementProductions]

Thanks for your inputs, synthsin75; they have given me many different views to think about.

Why then are you posting on a specifically Anime Studio forum? Let me guess. You couldn't find another animation software forum that was anywhere near as active.

At this point, both you and Jet appear to be spammers for Retas. Whether you are or not, certainly you could find a better place to discuss that software with more people who use it.

Well I know I am not, at least
I'm sorry if this is off topic for this forum, but you are right that there are not many active animation software forums out there, and Lost Marble had the most threads about Retas already in place.
You would also be correct that there is not a very active community for animation software, especially not paid software and especially not paid software that is unavailable in the West, and is home to very few Western users.

I was given to believe that this discussion was more than welcome here, due to the fact that I clearly stated my initial intention to start this thread when I signed up, and, that one of my first replies was from a moderator, and I did ask if I was doing anything wrong here in the initial post. But, I am new to forums, so please forgive me.

However, this thread is as much about AS as it is about Retas, as we have been discussing the marketabilty, development, and deficiencies of AS all along.
But, if you know of a better place to move this discussion, please do post a link and I will investigate.