Checking in with some questions...

[ladlon]

Hi. It's been a while since I've been to the forums. Some questions...

-Is this forum still a thing? (Active, official, etc) I'm confused by the (relatively) recent changes to the whole Moho/Smith Micro status, and am not really sure where anything stands (...as, I suspect, few do).

-So, probably a shot in the dark... but is there ANY news as to what is going on with Moho? (...in either a specific or general sense)

I REALLY am impressed with Moho, and several years ago replaced my career-long use of AfterEffects for 2D cartoon animation with it.

It was a real surprise. It's interface, initial impression, and (sadly) a lot of the 'official' tutorials gave it the impression of a bargain bin software for amateurs... but in reality, it has a startling assortment of very solid (and very useful) features that I don't even see in other, more 'advanced' programs (smart bones, vertex colouring, physics, etc).

However, I'm really not sure of the future of Moho, and have been looking at alternatives.

I'm not going back to Adobe... Period.

Harmony obviously seems to be what the industry is using... but first of all, it's obviously quite costly. I'd gladly get one of the lower tier versions, but they actually LACK many of the important features that the far less expensive Moho has! I'd be paying a lot of money... for a downgrade! Even the premium version lacks many of the features. So, I find it really hard to justify spending thousands of dollars for something that is a downgrade... aside from 'the industry is using it'. I know I would probably still rather use Moho, in that it has those features I use and would miss.

It really baffles me... Harmony is obviously an industry leader... yet it doesn't have anything like smart bones, vertex animation, vertex colouring, physics, etc... You need to drop $2500 just to get IK. (...and probably a few other required things... their comparison chart is quite vague, other than differentiating things as 'simple and advanced'.

I recently discovered OpenToonz (free, open source version of Toonz)... which, I had mixed impressions about initially. But, from what I am reading (often by Harmony users), it is pretty close (if not equal... and maybe better) than Harmony Essentials. In fact, a lot of users are saying that Harmony Essentials is kind of pointless to get, considering the capabilities of other cheaper alternatives... and that it's too stripped down.

Looking at OpenToonz, it appears similar to Harmony... so it may at least be a good means to learn a similar workflow. Looking closer, it looks pretty good... but again, compared to Moho, it seems to lack a lot of features... despite it (and Harmony) being praised as 'advanced'. The distortion methods look a bit iffy... Sure, it has standard bones that are good for controlling separated layers... but where Moho really shines, for me, is in how good the bones DEFORM (as in a single layer being controlled by multiple bones... rather than separated layers being MOVED by a single bone assigned to each layer). Even in the situation where a Moho bone causes unwanted distortion (pinching, overlap), it has the brilliant capabilities of the smart bones and vertex animation/editng to not only fix it, but enhance it with the ability to have movements create artwork modifications like muscle bulges, fabric wrinkles, and other secondary animation. I don't see any of that in Harmony... nor (unfortunately) OpenToonz.

I may end up adopting OpenToonz, since it's free, and MAY prove a good alternative to Moho, should it stop evolving... and indirect way of learning Harmony. But, there still doesn't seem to be a clear winner...

-Moho: Awesome, with features/tools surprisingly not found in 'advanced' animation programs. Really needs to update the interface/timeline... introduce some 'pro' features (exposure sheet). Future uncertain... just as it's getting really good.

-Adobe: Nope.

-Harmony: Stupid expensive. Pretty much have to buy premium just to get what I am used to... and even then, it's a downgrade from Moho in many ways. Feels like there is some unhappiness in the forums... Much like Maya, it's 'industry standard'... but not necessarily because everyone would choose it as their favorite.

-OpenToonz: Apparently, close to becoming a 'threat' to Harmony... at least as far as capabilities (...the industry won't switch over, but that's more a logistics thing than specific to OpenToonz). Free, so no harm in trying it. Has the pro features like exposure sheets and node trees that Harmony does. But, like Harmony, also lacks the great tools/features that Moho (alone) seems to have.

So, it's a real tough decision... I'd get Harmony just to be 'in sync' with the industry... but it's an expensive investment, for something I personally am so far not impressed with (as far as tools/features, compared to Moho).

Any other programs I've seen are either just for frame-by-frame, or are just really wonky/dated looking things for doing pencil sketch 'bouncing ball' animations...


Any thoughts out there?

[Greenlaw]

So, probably a shot in the dark... but is there ANY news as to what is going on with Moho? (...in either a specific or general sense)

Anybody who knows anything can't say anything...yet.

However, I'm really not sure of the future of Moho, and have been looking at alternatives.

Nothing wrong with that. Where I work, we use Moho, Photoshop, Harmony, Animate, LightWave, Maya and After Effects for TV series production. They each have their complementary strengths and weaknesses. FWIW, most of my work is heavily reliant on Moho these days, but I also use the other programs as needed.

I'm not going back to Adobe... Period.

Our work is also heavily reliant on After Effects, and I typically use it alongside Moho. Moho's Layer Comps system is practically made to work with AE. But there are other options for compositing and fx work. (See below.)

Harmony obviously seems to be what the industry is using.

Harmony's strength is FBF animation, which is Moho's weakness. Moho's strength is in it's IK rigging and Smart Bones, which is superior and easier to use than the rigging system in Harmony. I sometimes find myself using these two programs together in the same scene. For example, I might use Harmony FBF to create more fluid transitions between different Moho character rigs of the same character. Moho's Image Sequence layer makes it easy to insert the Harmony animation.

I recently discovered OpenToonz (free, open source version of Toonz)...

I haven't used OpenToonz yet but I know RoughDraft and Ghibli uses it. There's a good thread about it elsewhere in these forums.

So, it's a real tough decision... I'd get Harmony just to be 'in sync' with the industry... but it's an expensive investment, for something I personally am so far not impressed with (as far as tools/features, compared to Moho).

Personally, I like using TVPaint for FBF, and it's what I've been using lately for my personal work. But any FBF program can be used to compliment Moho. Some paint programs, like Krita, FireAlpaca, ClipStudio Paint, and even Photoshop feature an animation timeline. If cost is an issue, the first two are free.

Any thoughts out there?

IMO, just because you add a new program to your toolkit doesn't mean you have to give up your other tools. You can use them together. The key is to get a decent compositing program that allows you to glue all the parts together. At my workplace, we mainly use After Effects and sometimes Nuke. For my personal projects, I like to use After Effects or Fusion Studio. If you need an alternative to AE but don't want to buy Fusion Studio, the standard version is free for non-commercial work.

Whatever you decide, good luck. The important thing is to start creating stuff with whatever tool(s) you have.

[ladlon]

Hi, Greenlaw. Thanks for the response!

Yep, I have the CS6 Production Suite. I've been using AfterEffects extensively for pretty close to my entire career. No complaints with that. But, I'm stopped updating at CS6, due to the whole subscription thing. AE serves me well to this day, but I'm starting to want to use something a bit more modern, so I've been teaching myself Fusion and Nuke. I'll still use AE, though... it's just so familiar to me.

I use loads of other software... I've just been finding replacements for the Production suite (and other old software) over the past few years... Davinci Resolve, Affinity Design/Photo, Moho, Clip Studio EX, etc... Really happy with all those.

Like I said, Moho really surprised me when I got it years ago. Serious powerhouse of features, and surprisingly stable for me, too. I was surprised at the difference between how it deals with line width vs Affinity Design... The Moho line width system is brilliant and simple... whereas the AD one is surprisingly awkward and frustrating. Very odd...

I'll definitely be using Moho for a long time... even if the current version ends up being the last.

I really want to jump on board of Harmony or (if it proves similar) OpenToonz.... but I can't get over how lacking iot seems... No vertex animation, no vertex colour, no smart bones, etc... and you have to get Premium just to get IK. I find it hard to justify spending the money on that... and I actually WANT to invest in a solid 2D animation program. Moho gives me excellent results... I just find a few things (timeline) clunky or hard to read... probably easy fixes, but I suspect they won't make the changes I'd like. The tools themselves work great... and I like their workflow. It's more the dated looking interface, and the lack of some form of project overview... still infinitely better than Flash's timeline... with it's Small, Big, Bigger preset zoom (...WTF?!).

I'm in a similar boat wtih Clip Studio EX... Love it... and it too is an endless pit of features... incredible. But, they switched over to their original Asian company(?), and now it's really confusing... updates, getting info. After figuring out where to get updates, I tried it, but was very confused by what it installed. It's hard to tell what website to go to... and even the 'English' version is half Japanese, and awfully cluttered and chaotic. I hear the latest version of Clip has export to OpenToonz functionality... but, I have to figure out how to update first! (...they tell you how to install, but not if that's how you UPDATE... I hate having software residue!)

Anyway, ideally, Moho gets a really good update... but at this point, I'm really not sure WHAT is going on. Seems things with Smith Micro overall are kind of all over the place. So, that's why I'm looking... Not to abandon Moho, but to find some form of safe, solid 2D animation solution... as the 'pro' stuff just seems oddly lacking... unless I'm missing something here! (...although today I did read confirming testimony that Harmony doesn't have a lot of the functionality I would want)

I'm really surprised the other software doesn't have their own version of things like smart bones, vertex colour, etc...

Does Harmony even have dynamics (like Moho's ability to have bones automatically sway dynamically).

But, I guess I'll install OpenToonz, and see how that is. It may very well be quite similar to Harmony, and sort of be what Fusion is to Nuke.... a free 'pretty close' alternative, which will at least make me more familiar to the industry ways.

BTW, I should point out that I am mostly a 'cutout' type animator... not really a frame-by-frame freehand drawing type (although I would love to dive into that as well). Using the Moho bones (organically distorting the character artwork, rather than having all the pieces as separate, hinged layers) and switch layers has been perfect for me.
Previous to Moho, I would usually create the artwork in Photoshop (or Krita, or Clip Studio EX, etc), and assemble a parented 'rig' of the separated artwork in AE. Never really bothered with the Puppet tool, as it was too limited. Moho really allowed for some really nice, organic character movement... bending artwork, rather than hinging separate pieces. Huge jump in quality for me.

So often, I continue to forget and be surprised at redicovering all the little features in Moho.... like being able to create stereoscopic output, the various shading/shadow effects, physics, bone dynamics... If Harmony had that stuff, I'd take the investment plunge and get it. But, so far, it just seems a real (expensive) step back.

BTW, here's my first real Moho project... I was asked to animate a parody of a classic Canadian National Film Board animation. I was actually just learning Moho at the time. They gave me a script and audio track. I built the characters in Moho (based roughly on the original characters), painted the backgrounds in Clip Studio EX, and animated it in Moho (...having a blast with how organic and stretchy I could finally make things). I then took the raw animation render, brought it into AfterEffects, and applied a whole bunch of home-brewed effects (film dirt, exposure fluctuation, line wiggle, paint splotching). Very, very happy with the end result. Totally a new look/feel for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvO5W96SUzo

[Greenlaw]

That looks great! Sorry, had to watch with the sound off but will watch it again and properly tonight.

...Moho gets a really good update... but at this point, I'm really not sure WHAT is going on.

FWIW, I've been using Moho Pro at DreamWorks for over two years with great success, and for the time being we see no reason to stop using it. We did get concerned after the baffling SM shakeup a while back, but I've since been assured that Moho development continues and we'll see a new release eventually. I can't go into any more detail than that, and even if I could say more, I don't know the details anyway. But, based on recent Moho updates by the new dev team, I feel optimistic about Moho's future.

I'm really surprised the other software doesn't have their own version of things like smart bones, vertex colour, etc...

Does Harmony even have dynamics (like Moho's ability to have bones automatically sway dynamically).

As mentioned earlier, Moho's puppet rigging is easier to use and more advanced. Harmony doesn't really support a proper IK...not like what you find in Moho and many 3D programs anyway. For example, where Moho users can simply use target bones and independent rotation to lock feet to the ground, Harmony users need to create an switchable 'reverse limb' from the ground up. Then you manually keyframe the top of the bone chain or curve deformer to point and the character's pelvis. This setup is cludgey but it works...it's just not as nice to animate with as a real IK system with targets. Also, there's no equivalent in Harmony for Smart Bones, which is like the set-driven key system found in may 3D programs, or Smart Meshes for that matter. (Actually, they added animation controls in latest release but my understanding is that it's not yet as flexible as Mohos' system.)

I haven't checked lately but I don't believe Harmony has a dynamics system yet either.

Where Harmony shines over Moho is in FBF creation, and it's drawing tools are top notch. In recent versions, Moho made significant improvements In both these areas, but it still has some catching up to do. In Harmony, drawing with vectors or pixels is predictable and creating FBF is a smooth process. Moho has an usable FBF system but the drawing tools are still too buggy to rely on for long, complicated animations. I sometimes use Moho's drawing and FBF tools for effects animations like splashes and fire, but I tend to avoid it for anything more complicated. (I did try it for some character FBF in a scene last year. The results looked fine but I spent way too much time fixing drawing errors. I wound up going back to Harmony for FBF after that.)

Two other areas where Harmony beats Moho is in its support of higher bit depths. Moho really needs to start supporting 10-bit and higher if it wants to stay relevent for commerical animation production. The other area where Harmony wins is the nodal interface, which makes working with many art layers and masks much easier and more efficient than a strictly layers based system. For example, in Moho, I might have to duplicate a character group multiple times to get the proper layering effect I need in a scene, but in Harmony, I can just feed a single character group to multiple nodes to get the same effect...this is more effecient and if you lay out your nodes intelligently, it's easier to follow.

But for rigged 'puppet-style' animation with Smart Bone controllers and Smart Meshes, for me, it's definitely Moho all the way.

BTW, I should point out that I am mostly a 'cutout' type animator... not really a frame-by-frame freehand drawing type (although I would love to dive into that as well). Using the Moho bones (organically distorting the character artwork, rather than having all the pieces as separate, hinged layers) and switch layers has been perfect for me.

Previous to Moho, I would usually create the artwork in Photoshop (or Krita, or Clip Studio EX, etc), and assemble a parented 'rig' of the separated artwork in AE. Never really bothered with the Puppet tool, as it was too limited. Moho really allowed for some really nice, organic character movement... bending artwork, rather than hinging separate pieces. Huge jump in quality for me.

The nice thing about Moho is that you can easily combine techniques. If you look at my 2017 reel, you'll see both characters painted in Photoshop and drawn directly in Moho with vectors, and many instances of hybrid bitmap/vector puppets.

I sometimes create FBF in a paint program or render cycles from a 3D program to an image sequence, and import that to a switch layer so I can control it using a Smart Bone. For example, a while back I rendered a 360 degree turntable of a fiber-based hairstyle created in a 3D program, brought the frames into Moho and 'attached' it to the character. Then, using a Smart Bone Dial, I was able to rotate the hair with the head. The rest of the character was 'cut' from fabric and otherwise painted in Photoshop. The result was a character that was animated in 2D but looked very 3D-ish as a result.

I think what I love about Moho is the endless looks and styles the program can achieve. With Moho I've been able to create 2D animations that look like cut-out paper, hand-drawn FBF, craft projects, photographic/rendered CGI, animated paintings, or weird hybrid media. The animation styles can be snappy and steppy, or smooth and elegant. So far, the possibilities have been endless.

[ladlon]

Hi, Greenlaw. Thanks again for the really helpful and interesting response. Much appreciated!

Thanks for checking out that animation. I literally was learning Moho at the time, and it was a real indication of how easy to use and how powerful Moho is. Previous (AfterEffect) animations were good, but consisted of hinged, rigid characters (rigid torso, upper arm, lower arm, etc), with a little squash and stretch (via the scale attribute)... but Moho allowed me to have limbs single layers/pieces, with natural bends, and IK with delay stretch and other great features. The swap layer feature was a really nice addition to my tools (for eyes, mouth, hands, etc)... whereas even though you COULD rig that sort of thing indirectly in AE, I usually just kepth hands rigid, and eyes were done as separate eyelids, pupils, etc. So much nicer with swap layers.

Ya, that's the thing that is really puzzling/troubling for me... I'd get Harmony to be in sync with the industry (be able to get in-house jobs, etc)... but it staggers me how little Harmony has, as far as what I am used to (and love) in Moho. Smart bones, vertex colouring, bone dynamic bones, verticies animation, physics, etc.... I pay $2500 Canadian for the Premium version... and get none of that. It's just really hard to justify... plus, it's baffling how they don't have that functionality, at any cost, considering they are industry leaders. Meanwhile, humble little Moho has it all.

For frame by frame, ya, it feels like Harmony is solid... but for cutout.... it seems surprisingly lacking. Even their 'premium priced' envelope deformer is acually kind of lame, compared to Moho's (seemingly easier to use) system.

I looked further into OpenToonz... Looks great... kind of like a free version of Harmony. It does have deformers, although their version is sort of like AfterEffect's Puppet tool... which I always found limited and easy to break. I was always impressed how well Moho distorted things (even bitmaps)... and even when it did break, it allowed you to fix it with vertices editing. Meanwhile, I watched a demo of Harmony's envelop editor (it's most 'impressive' deformer).... and it broke the mesh in a big way, immediately!

I revisited Moho again, and ya, for the most part, it's really just a visual thing... The UI has a bit of a dated look. Doesn't affect the functionality, but it does have an affect. I changed the UI to a darker colour, and that helped a bit!

There's just a few things I always wanted changed, but I don't think they will do... For one thing, I wish the different keyframe types where not all circular with a different 'graphic' inside... Instead, they should make them all different shapes (not all within the same circle). That would result in a far more distinguishable profile of the keyframe shape. Have one type a circle, another a square, another a triangle... you can also have reused shapes, but have some filled, some hallow, etc. Just something that is easier to distinguish than a few pixels within the same circle shape. I'm on a 1920x1080 screen, and the keyframe icons are tiny. They really need to be easier to distinguish.

Another thing I have suggested is the ability to display the timeline attributes (the channels to the left, indicating what each timeline track represents) as text, rather than the samey-looking icons. As with all my suggestions in the past, keep them as options, that way, no one gets angry!

I'm really (really) glad to hear about Moho's future looking good. I fully understand you can't really reveal much, even if you did have info. It's just good to hear it's still being worked on, and there is a chance things could really get good. Again, what is there is already surprisingly excellent... I mean, I have yet to find a lot of the functionality in ANY other program... free or expensive.

Dreamworks used Moho!? That's awesome! I mean, the only reason I'm even considering Harmony, is because I feel like I pretty much have to use it in order to be compatible with the industry. There ARE afew places that still use things like AfterEffects, etc... It just seems hard to find them. Unfortunately, I seem to be using all the non-industry leader software... Modo rather than Maya, Moho rather than Harmony, Fusion rather than Nuke, etc. Up to now, it hasn't been a problem, since I usually work independently at home, taking care of the entire project, rather than as part of a team. But, I'm wanting the option to work in-house, too. So, for now, I'm just teaching myself via videos and manuals.

[ladlon]

Cool demo reels, BTW!

Man, you got to work at R&H! Jealous....

I really love the chalky backgrounds in some of the Dreamworks reel... reminds me of some of the production art for classic Disney films.