images with smooth bone joints and targets

[Chesterd]

Hi Folks
I have read the topic recently about rigging images, but was wondering about this:
When using Smooth Bone joints for legs, it cancels out the target bone setting for feet. I saw the layer trick with multiple smooth joints for arms works well, but only if it is a straight line with the hand straight out.
Seems like the best option would be to create a pivot point as layer on Photoshop and then match them up to the bone joints, as someone suggested?
Smooth bone joints work really well for legs and arms, just a shame I can't get the foot bone right. It won't stay as an independant angle (for target bone purposes ).
Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.
Hope this makes sense.

[Greenlaw]

When using Smooth Bone joints for legs, it cancels out the target bone setting for feet.

Can you post an example? I don't think I've seen or heard about this behavior with Smooth Joint. Also, which version of Moho are you using? (I'm using Moho 12.4.)

I saw the layer trick with multiple smooth joints for arms works well, but only if it is a straight line with the hand straight out.

Yes, if you intend to use Smooth Joint, this is the best way. In practice, I find there is actually a small angle tolerance, meaning I can bend the joint slightly to favor a preferred IK direction, but the artwork really should be drawn 'straightened'.

Seems like the best option would be to create a pivot point as layer on Photoshop and then match them up to the bone joints, as someone suggested?

It depends on the character design and the rigging technique you wish to employ. If you paint it as a single layer, you will need to deform the image, which for images could be problematic at the joint. To work with this, you may need to use a custom mesh with a Smart Bone Action applied to the joint...or use a Smooth Joint. With appropriate artwork, Smooth Joint doesn't have issue with bending since its nature is to somehow 'fold over' the artwork at the joint.

If you decided to separate the upper and lower limb artwork, then you can probably just layer bind the artwork and rotate it (as opposed to bending it.) The painted joint target art I described earlier is just a reference to help align the bones so they rotate properly. You can remove this target after rigging. When I'm in a hurry, I'll sometimes paint the target art directly on the artwork for the rigging alignment, and then I'll paint it out afterwards. When the art is resaved in the paint program with the target painted out, the 'clean' version will load into Moho automatically.

Smooth bone joints work really well for legs and arms, just a shame I can't get the foot bone right. It won't stay as an independant angle (for target bone purposes ).

You should be able to use Independent Angle on the foot bone. That's what I almost always use. It shouldn't matter if your using Smooth Joint or not. That said, I don't recommend using Smooth Joint on an ankle joint...Smooth Joint tends to work better for elbows and knees. For the ankle, I'd just use a separate image, and depending on the artwork, maybe use some Selective Flexi-bind.

Note: again, depending on the artwork, this is where a custom Smart Mesh with an Action might be useful, if you really need the ankle joint to actually bend (as opposed to just rotating.)

Lock Bone is another technique that might work for you. This is a keyframeable option that allows you to lock the position and angle of the foot, and unlock it with a keyframe. Independent Angle is just on all the time, which some users may find frustrating. (TBH, I prefer the latter most of the time--IMO, it offers more animation control and flexibility. That said, I do wish Independent Angle's switch was keyframeable like Lock Bone.)

BTW, if you need specific answers, it always better to post screen caps and/or project files that illustrate the specific problem. Moho is a very flexible program with many ways to do things, so it's difficult to narrow issues down when there is only a text description.

Hope this helps.

[Greenlaw]

Re: Smooth Joint vs Layer Binding, In my first DWATV demo reel, there are animations from All Hail King Julien featuring Thighsander Plunderhorse and Norge Grindlefist.

From what recall, I used Smooth Joint on Thighsander's elbows. The hands and feet are in Switch Layers that have Layer Binding to their bone. (These may have been Images or Vector art filled with textures...it really doesn't matter. I probably used Vector whenever I needed extra animation in the hands.)

What I like about Smooth Joint in this setup is that I can easily 'wind' the arms and the joints always look good, no Smart Bone Action needed. I use this to great effect in the Puss-In-Boots rig...he winds his arms around a lot in those animations. (See the separate 'Puss' demo reel.)

For Thighsander's legs, I probably just used vectors filled with a texture using the Image Texture effect. This allowed me to get much nicer 'bending' in the legs. It also let me 'roll' the legs convincingly by sliding the texture inside the vector shape.

For Norge, I remember I could not use Smooth Joint in his arms, even though they were painted 'straightened'. This was because of the extreme tapering of the arm shape. I think in this case, I just created the pivot joint in Photoshop to help me align the bones as described, and then just used Layer Bind for the upper and lower arm sections.

Thankfully, Moho has many different ways to do things because, in my experience, 'one size does not fit all.'

I hope this example helps. It's possible that my descriptions are not 100% accurate because this was done quite a long time ago. (FYI, created with Anime Studio 10 or 11; definitely long before Moho 12 came out.)

[synthsin75]

Smooth bone joints shouldn't affect target bones, but you will probably want to separate the foot from the leg, instead of trying double smooth joints.

[Chesterd]

Thanks for your advice and the examples! Most appreciated.
I will try the suggestion: layer bind the artwork and rotate it (as opposed to bending it.) See how that works.
The leg and foot is one layer at present, so I will try editing to 2 layers, one for leg one for foot.
Not sure why the foot bone will not stick to an independant angle. I can see the bone stays in place but the actual image of does not. Probably due to the one layer?
Thanks for your help, Greenlaw and synthsin75, I will do some investigating.
If it fails, I will post up a pic of my woes.
Cheers.

[synthsin75]

Not sure why the foot bone will not stick to an independant angle. I can see the bone stays in place but the actual image of does not. Probably due to the one layer?

Yeah, probably due to using just one image layer, especially if using smooth joint.

[Maestral]

There was another approach to this, posted some moons ago...

Make a duplicate of the image, stacked one over the other. Bind these layers to the same bones so they move as desired.
Now, use the smooth joint on the upper one (knee) and mask out the lower part of the calf and the foot.
On the lower one, use the smooth joint for the foot and mask out this layer close to the previous mask but make sure the masks overlap.

This way, you'll have just one smooth joint per layer and this could solve the target bone issue. Though, this works better on the arms since the wrist is usually as straight as the elbow (in depiction) but perhaps it would work with your feet as well!?

[Greenlaw]

Yes, that was Victor's idea, a great 'unofficial' technique!

Here's the original link describing it with a video example:

http://www.lostmarble.com/forum/viewtop ... =9&t=27158

[Chesterd]

Thanks everyone for your advice.
I have had a bit more success with having the foot on a different layer. Need to round off the edges a bit more so that the end of the leg doesn't pop out underneath the base of the foot when bending.