wierd bug with PSD and undo

[heyvern]

This is hard to describe and I have yet to replicate it consistently. It just happens randomly.

I have a project with moho files made entirely of multiple linked PSD files. Some files are opened from the psd and also have imported groups from psd. Also I will copy a layer from ANOTHER opened PSD linked moho and paste into another moho file that has other linked PSD files. I never gave it a thought this might cause issues. Everything in the beginning was working great and no problems.

The bug or problem itself is very hard to describe or document because it's so funky and weird I can't say exactly what happened. Usually after "undo" the entire file seems to partially revert or return back a bunch of stuff from the Photoshop file. It also moves layers around in the moho structure.

It just happened 3 times in a row with a file. The first time I immediately reverted. The second time, I tried to figure out what had changed and if my existing animation was still there.
Granted, this is a VERY complex file with lots of duplicated group layers and a bunch of craziness as I experimented. But I got it where I wanted and saved a final and deleted all the extra bits and bobs, and was moving on with the final animation when BOOM! A bazillion layers I had just deleted came back, and it took my main bone layer with all the animation and stuck it back into the top-level PSD folder in moho, along with adding in a whole pile of layers I had deleted.

This happens immediately after an undo. Every time this bug happens, it's after an undo command. I simply hit undo after moving some bone keys AND BOOM. My entire screen was completely different. New layers appeared over top of my main animation bone folder. In an instant, the entire moho file reorganized and changed in a way that was never part of the edit history. It seemed to merge a bunch of undo states and possibly tried to reload all the layers from the original PSD, but since they had all changed it couldn't get it right, or it just failed. And it was very strange looking. The original PSD was not remotely configured the way it was changed to.

The other symptom is that I tend to keep working in the original top-level folder with the name of the PSD file. I never considered changing it or moving stuff out. I simply converted folders inside to bones or switches. I would add particle layers and drag-linked PSD layers into the particles, etc., etc The bug or whatever it is will simply move stuff around bounce things arround INSIDE THE NAMED PSD LAYER IN MOHO. I am pretty sure this is linked to whatever process links and updates moho to photoshop.

As I said I usually revert when this happens and try to recreate any missing keys or set up I had. Then on the THIRD time this bug happened it duplicated and entire folder/group layer of PSD files and reverted the duplicates back to the original scale. Luckily it kept the ones I changed so I deleted the duplicates. No however, I am walking on eggshells waiting for this to happen and trying to avoid undos.

Like I said this was very bizare and hard to know exactly what changed where and why because it didn't look familar.

I was thinking to replace all my images with static "non linked" png files instead of PSD. It shouldn't be incredibly crazy as long as the files are all exported from the same original psd? Although at this point in my deadline it's not feasible to waste time on this if I can struggle through it, Like I said this is a random sporadic no clue when or where it will happen thing. It has happened a 5 or 6 times over the two or three weeks on this project. Today was the worse with 3 big ones in a row.

Also I checked and there is no "default auto save" in photoshop. I hate the linking and changing of the psd to moho and try to avoid it if possible. Changing the size of layers or adding new layers causes massive destruction to the moho file. I usually do a save as replace parts by opening the second PSD in moho and dragging new layers over and pasting in keys.

[Greenlaw]

I've been using layered PSD in Moho for a while, and haven't noticed any surprises since the recent Moho updates. I think Moho reloads the layers whenever the PSD is updated in the source program (i.e., Photoshop). I'm not sure how often Moho checks for the update, but it usually seems immediate to me. Occasionally, I'll need to close and reopen the Moho project to get the saved PSD changes, but most of the time, it does this on its own.

Are you using a cloud service like Dropbox or Google Drive? If so, try saving to a fixed local drive/directory. I know there was an issue with a previous version of Moho where an active project file on a cloud service might get corrupted or replaced with an older version; probably a conflict between Moho and the cloud service, both updating the same file. That issue was fixed some time ago, but maybe this is related? Anyway, keeping the active project file off the cloud drive should prevent the issue. After you're done, you can move the file back onto the cloud service for backup or sharing.

(FYI, I generally avoid working out of a cloud drive with any program just to be safe.)

Another thing to be aware of: Give your layers unique and sensible names. Moho 14.x first checks for layer names; if there are duplicate layer names, it resorts to reading layer IDs, which may not be as reliable depending on how you manage the layers. If you give your layers unique names, you shouldn't see any weird layer update problems related to that.

Previous versions of Moho relied solely on layer IDs, which caused all sorts of problems when adding, deleting, and merging layers in the paint program, which can replace the layer IDs and break the link to Moho. Now that Moho looks at layer names first, I haven't seen such problems (assuming I'm giving the layers unique names, of course).

Also, be aware that Moho does not support certain program-specific features of the paint program (these features can vary by program), so avoid using them or bake the layer effect into the layer before importing the PSD into Moho.

Sometimes, I'll still fall back to PNG layer exports. The best way to do this in Photoshop is the use the free third party plugin Photoshop-Export-Layers-to-Files-Fast. This tool's list of save options is amazing...it supports almost any format, cropping, merging, and naming option you can think of, and it can even filter out layers you don't want to export. Before the recent PSD update, I used it flawlessly with Moho for over a decade, and I'll still use it when I'm trying something extra complicated.

If you use Krita, there is a native layer export script in the Menu that does something similar. It's not nearly as robust as the Photoshop script, but still useful.

With either program, Moho is smart enough to update the PNG layers whenever they are changed or otherwise overwritten by a batch export from these scripts.

Hope this helps.

[heyvern]

Oh boy, I figured it, and it's a woozy. I am going to call it "user error," and I will have to refine my haphazard Photoshop usage in Moho.

So it involves moving layers around in combination with changing layer names in Photoshop! I now have replicated what scared the bejesus out of me a few hours ago. It, however, didn't break anything or lose anything it just freaked me out because of the extent of the changes that occurred to the file. There is that "gap" of time between saving in Photoshop and switching back to Moho. Sometimes, if you switch back and it hasn't finished saving it happens while you watch. That is probably what happened to me.

I will try to explain what happened.
I had a PSD imported layer group. I had moved things around and reorganized the layer order with other layers in Moho.
I then realized I had absolutely stupid, silly layer names from Photoshop, and since I hadn't animated any of the imported layers or changed anything that drastic, I decided to rename them in Photoshop and... see what happens.
After I changed the names in the PSD, Moho was not thrilled with this update and RECREATED THE ORIGINAL PSD GROUP LAYER and imported the whole dang thing from scratch removing the original layers from their location and dumping in the psd group layers as a new version with new names. This is what was happening to me in the past. I think the reason it would happen WHILE i was working in moho was because the file hadn't completed updating or the UNDO was UNDOING THE CHANGES I MADE IN PHOTOSHOP. If you hit undo and go back too far, weird things happen if you changed the PSD. There was duplicated layers in a past experience becuase I duplicated the layers in photoshop and then deleted the originals, instead of editing the originals. So I deleted the originals but had the duplicates with the same name? I have no clue but there were two of everything.

Basically, user error. I simply shouldn't make drastic changes like that and expect it to work. Nothing was lost, nothing was broken; it just got really wonky and weird. At least i have more of a grasp on whats going on. Going to test this out when I have time and find what is happening and how changes from photoshop are handled.

[Greenlaw]

Ah, yeah, I think that makes sense.

As mentioned, Moho normally does a good job when the layer names are clear, and when they're not, it looks at layer IDs; but when a lot of changes are rushed through before both programs can complete their processes, I see how Moho may get confused.

Anyway, I'm glad you got it sorted out, and thanks for sharing your discoveries!