z axis rotation of bones

binus · Post by **binus** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 10:23 am

Is it possible to rotate bone in z axis? If this can be done lot of works can be simplified, like front walk cycle.

Genete · Post by **Genete** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 3:00 pm

What are you refering to rotate in Z axis?
As far as I know bones rotates thru Z axis of the layer that they are (the bone layer). I supouse that you refer to a rotation in an axis perpendicular to Z that allow a Z movement of the binded shape/points.
You can not rotate bones in that way because bones will be always within the bone layer plane. But you can make a X or Y rotation to the Vector layer that is inside the bone layer so the corresponding vector layer is rotating in X or Y (or a combination of) while the bone is a 2D rotation (though its Z axis). It is not true 3D but for certain kind of animation could be useful.

Sorry if my explanation is not so clear. Perhaps an example will help.
If you want I can post an example tonight (at home).

Regards
Genete

binus · Post by **binus** » Fri Dec 01, 2006 5:34 am

Can you please post an example of what you have explained.

Post by **Víctor Paredes** » Fri Dec 01, 2006 2:12 pm

i always show the same example... this are 3d objects with several 2d bone layers.

here is a little more information.
http://www.lostmarble.com/forum/viewtop ... in&start=0

heyvern · Post by **heyvern** » Fri Dec 01, 2006 3:03 pm

There is another reason why you would desire the third rotation axis for bones.

Yes you can rotate a layer or use 3D elements, but suppose you had a forearm and wanted to create simple foreshortening. Scaling the bone doesn't always do the job so well. So if you could rotate the bone in the "3rd" dimension this would very... very cool. It would distort only the points under its control.

Man... this would be cool.

-vern

Genete · Post by **Genete** » Fri Dec 01, 2006 4:43 pm

Hey! I have to close my mouth today!!!
Not with vectors, only with 3D Object those things can be done...

Now at home I've tried to do as I said before and it is not possible. Bone layer make a proyection of the sublayers held accordint to its relative projection. so if you have a 90º X rotated VECTOR layer inside a bone layer, once you get out of frame 0 the bone layer proyect the figure to its perspective so the shape is seen as a line.

Here is an exaple in a rotarion of 45º X axis.
FRAME 0

FRAME 1

AFTER SOME BONE MANIPULATION

It is an interesting result. Rotation of vector layer have been done at frame 0. If you do it at other frame it rotates relative to its origin do final position is on other level.

Sorry for answer something wrong

I was playing with a 3D object that was a piece of paper and I get confused.

Post by **Víctor Paredes** » Fri Dec 01, 2006 11:20 pm

lostmarble spoke one time about 3d bones, he said moho doesn't have 3d bones because a philosophical problem more than a technical problem.
in feature request he said No.

on the other hand, i remember fazek wrote he could write (o maybe was writing) a script for draw 3d vectors. that sound really cool and now i think about, maybe 3d bones could be a script too, i don't know...

Rasheed · Post by **Rasheed** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 12:37 am

Well, if you put only one bone in each bone layer, and find an alternative way to manipulate bones, 3D bones shouldn't be impossible to do. You simply put the origin of the bone layer at the origin of the bone and use X
axis rotation to rotate into 3D and Z axis translation to translate into 3D.

You now have to do it by hand, but I'm sure this could be automated using special tool scripts.

An additional problem in using 2D layers is that there is no hidden surface removal. An object is either in front or in the back of another object. Therefore, I had to use two layers, one in front and one in the back, and use layer visibility to create an illusion of 3D. If there are several 3D objects, it can be quite elaborate to create a static setup, because the number of permutations (layers in front and in the back of other layers), go up like permutations (2 for two objects, 2 * 3 for three objects, 2 * 3 * 4 for four objects, and so on...). Each possibility would then have to be put into a switch layer, etc. At for instance 10 objects, AS would become dog slow because of the many objects involved.

So its possible, but not very practicle, I think.

source: 3D bones.zip

I think it is far easier to create 3D animation in another program, export as 3D image objects and import those as a 3D image sequence into AS.

binus · Post by **binus** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:39 pm

Rasheed, Thanks for your example. It works!! , not exactly what i had asked but still get the result, and that is what i want. I have not tested it in detail still I am sure it will do...Thanks man.

Rasheed · Post by **Rasheed** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:49 pm

Ah, well this "think thank" has been coming up with some great ideas lately.

I only wished I could put my ideas into practice myself. I really stink at drawing (seeing proportions) and that seems to be a prerequisite if you want to create appealing animation.

Post by **Víctor Paredes** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:00 pm

here is my example. is not too clean.

i can't write much, my right hand is plastered (maybe is not the word). i fell down from a tree... i sprained my right hand and my left elbow

AS file
http://www.freewebs.com/tazatriste/mohos/mano3d.rar

Rasheed · Post by **Rasheed** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 1:17 pm

That is exactly what I described.

I guess the point is that you have to be careful about the position of the 3D (and 2D) object to other objects in your scene. If it is supposed to be in front of other objects, it should also be higher in the layer order in your Layer window than those other 3D objects. And if objects change position in front and back, relative to the viewer, you need to use duplicate layers and modify layer visibility of the layer duplicates at just the right frame in the timeline.

Post by **Víctor Paredes** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:47 pm

rasheed, i haven't visibility problems. the 3d space works fine even if i have several bone layers with a 3d bone each one.
then i group all them in a new bone layer, as in the hand example.
the layer orden doesn't affect the... am... 3d visibility.

if you want that a 3d object be on top or behind the other, you can select "reset z buffer" in the layer options. just when you chose it, the layer order is important.

you can see in my example, the fat finger cross the other finger (which is not too clean...)