AND SO IT BEGINS...

Draw_Girl · Post by **Draw_Girl** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 11:55 pm

Yup it's working for me too.

Nice can't wait to see more.

Bones3D · Post by **Bones3D** » Sun Dec 31, 2006 9:43 am

artfx, Thanks for the reply.

After taking some time to step through your clips on a frame-by-frame basis, I think I'm beginning to understand how you've been doing these animations. It's actually not much different from a lot of the other animations I've seen from other users (overlapped shapes, shape morph/rotation/translation over time) on here, except for one major factor... You seem to have a stronger instinct for implying 3D movements within those shapes by using and manipulating detail lines resting on the surfaces of those shapes.

Would it be possible for you to render a short clip in two versions (one with the detail lines and one without)? I think it would probably be a great demonstration of just how much a few subtle details can add to the realism of an animated character.

For anyone that's curious as to what I mean by "detail lines", take a look at the first clip artfx posted in this thread and try to focus only on the lines overlapping the shapes of the character, rather than the shapes themselves, when watching it.

(A good real-world example of this would be to look at your own body in the mirror, and watch how your skin stretches and contracts over the surface of your skeleton as you move.)

LittleFenris · Post by **LittleFenris** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 3:44 pm

Bones3D wrote:You seem to have a stronger instinct for implying 3D movements within those shapes by using and manipulating detail lines resting on the surfaces of those shapes.

I'm sure this is from his many years of producing Anime in Lightwave and other 3D packages.

artfx · Post by **artfx** » Tue Jan 02, 2007 10:25 pm

That's a good idea Bones3D. I would probably be good to use the same clip which you mention. That technique can go a long way.

DarthFurby · Post by **DarthFurby** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 4:32 am

Just some tidbits if you're interested in vector export: Anime Studio creates a customized swf that has some weird quirks, including slowdown. Some of that probably has to do with the unique way AS calculates vector curves, but if you import that swf into Flash, and re-export it as an Adobe swf, the slowdown usually goes away. Also, if an AS swf has too many complicated vectors, it won't import into Flash properly(i.e. missing shapes). The way around that is to separate your character into enough vector layers so that each layer can be individually imported into Flash.

Kind of a bummer, but not all swfs are created equal.

Bones3D · Post by **Bones3D** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 12:42 pm

artfx wrote:That's a good idea Bones3D. I would probably be good to use the same clip which you mention. That technique can go a long way.

Looking forward to it.

BTW, I went back to some of the earlier posts in the thread, and noticed you linked a dvd called Anime: Concept to Reality. I also noticed there is a common name shared between the DVD and on the Studio ArtFX website... "Terrance Walker". Would that happen to be you, by chance?

At any rate, I ordered the DVD anyway to get a look at it for myself. (I'm actually kind of surprised I don't already have it, after reading the reviews for it.)

In the meanwhile, I plan to check out the AnimeGen podcasts posted over at Studio ArtFX when I have some more time available. I skimmed over one of the earlier releases and it looks like it may actually be helpful.

Finally, one of the other users here mentioned you used to do some 3D anime work using lightwave. This is actually not unlike where my early attempts at anime originated from, except that I've been using Carrara Studio in my case. While I did actually manage some reasonable degree of success within the limitations of the software's cel shader, I noticed it was incredibly difficult to get the outlines to render properly without having to alter the render settings every few frames.

Here's a couple of model renders of mine:

- Head Test
- Body Test

Overall though, the problems in keeping the outlines stable just made it way too inefficient to work with. (I've been considering a move to something more like Cinema 4D with its sketch and toon shader.) I'm curious if you had similar issues under lightwave.

artfx · Post by **artfx** » Fri Jan 05, 2007 9:43 pm

Yes. I am the same Terrence. And I did do quite a bit of 3D cel shading in Lightwave. Still have 3D cel shading plans as well. But your tests do exhibit the very problem every cel shader encounters whether its a guy like me using Lightwave or a huge budget theatrical production like Appleseed. That's just something that will have to be lived with unless some of the more recent NPR renders can deliver different.

In my case, many of the new sketch and NPR renders delliver many magnificent painterly and sketchy styles, but none of them look like the anime I desire so I have never gone too far into them. I think using Anime Studio may in fact be the best way to achieve one of the things I am truly after and I take a different view of how I would do a cel shaed film as a result.

rplate · Post by **rplate** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 12:41 am

artfx wrote:This week I have some new ideas for AS and will really push the point animation versus switch layer testing.

Terrence...YOU got me interested, and I spent some time working with point animation. Or, shall I say point group animation?
Putting all the pieces into select groups and shapes is the key to making it all productive. It certainly simplified a lot of the work. Example, a head or other part turns vertically and I select the group, face and all, and use the rotation tool. A little point touch up and ...
As you will see by the link below I really took a challenge and not only did a turning head but the whole body as well. It was a great learning experience and I feel I have a much better grasp of ASP.
I didn't use any switches in the animation. I simply hi -lited the group I wanted to hide and used the scale tool to reduce it to a size so I could hide it behind a darker color. For example when the eye disappeared as the head turned, I hid the eye in Capt Kirks sideburns. Sure beats making a switch for hiding so many pieces. The animation was more a study in point animation than a very "finished"product. I was more interested in the process.
click here to see my animation.
Also COLORING the parts of the figures help me keep track of legs and arms, as the figure turned. click here to see the color figure.

Genete · Post by **Genete** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:01 am

Example, a head or other part turns vertically and I select the group, face and all, and use the rotation tool. A little point touch up and ...

Can you explain in detail what rotation tool do you use? Perspective points, rotate points or rotate layer?
A little point touch up and ... WHAT?

Could you post a simple anme file sample for the critical step?

Bones3D · Post by **Bones3D** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:37 am

artfx wrote:Yes. I am the same Terrence. And I did do quite a bit of 3D cel shading in Lightwave. Still have 3D cel shading plans as well. But your tests do exhibit the very problem every cel shader encounters whether its a guy like me using Lightwave or a huge budget theatrical production like Appleseed. That's just something that will have to be lived with unless some of the more recent NPR renders can deliver different.

In my case, many of the new sketch and NPR renders delliver many magnificent painterly and sketchy styles, but none of them look like the anime I desire so I have never gone too far into them. I think using Anime Studio may in fact be the best way to achieve one of the things I am truly after and I take a different view of how I would do a cel shaed film as a result.

Interesting.

Maybe I don't need to rush into the high-end after all, but instead, use cel shading to render the 3D characters' "fill" areas, then add the outlines manually in post. From my understanding Moho/Anime Studio does support rotoscoping.

More interesting though, is that by keeping the outlines isolated from the character fills, it would also open up some very interesting options for special effects.

rplate · Post by **rplate** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:02 am

Genete wrote:
Example, a head or other part turns vertically and I select the group, face and all, and use the rotation tool. A little point touch up and ...
Can you explain in detail what rotation tool do you use? Perspective points, rotate points or rotate layer?
A little point touch up and ... WHAT?
Could you post a simple anme file sample for the critical step?

Genete,
Sorry I forgot there is more than one kind of rotation point. I'm speaking of the vector point rotation tool. In the Draw tool section. Take a look at this Rotate movie to see what I mean. I have preview turned on, otherwise when I select a group you would see the red vector dots and lines. I think you will see what I mean. I hope this helps you see how the rotate tool along with the group tool can save a lot of time and effort with point animation. It takes a little plannng ahead but well worth the effort.
After rotating a group into the right position it will usually only take a little point touch up to finish the group vector adjustment.

rplate · Post by **rplate** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:00 am

artfx wrote:This week I have some new ideas for AS and will really push the point animation versus switch layer testing.

The above link to my point animation is so low resolution that I want to give you a choice of seeing it as it should be seen. It's a 30meg DV stream so you might have to wait. I took off the front end credits that are in the lower res version.

click here to see the HD version of my point animation clip.
click here to see the LOW res version of my point animation clip
OR click here to see the FLASH version. This was not made for a FLASH version. For one, there's NO sound. Needs more work on that.

The manual says to export sound in mp3 format for flash. HOW? ASP doesn'y import mp3. SO, how do I put a sound file with a flash file?
Anyway for what it's worth it's there to SEE.

MattVG · Post by **MattVG** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:04 am

rplate: That was some nicely done point animation! Not to mention that it was funny too.

- Matt

artfx · Post by **artfx** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 7:35 am

30 Megs?! A mere trifle for broadbanders! That was nicely done and exactly what I was talking about as far as point animation taking vector animation as far as possible from the "flash" look associated with it. That works very well.

rplate · Post by **rplate** » Sat Jan 06, 2007 8:51 pm

I added a cut away close up of Sulu to my animation to see how visible worked. It's the same link as above but upgraded.

I didn't change the smaller version.

click here to see the FLASH version. No sound.
click here for the HD version with sound track.
The HD version downloads to your computer before playing. I didn't realize that.

I'll try and fix that. I think I forgot to tell it to stream when I exported it.
(sigh) So much to remember, so much forgotten.
Well, works fine on my iMac, but my old laptop downloads it.