Over the years, I've been doing a great deal of knockout work--in other words, isolating objects from their backgrounds.
I'm overdue for learning what "best practices" are in doing this kind of work--I need to be as efficient as possible.
I know there are tools which supposedly assist with this, both third-party tools and tools already built into Photoshop (or similar editors).
I've used the tools in Photoshop a little and didn't find them helpful. This makes me doubt whether the third party add-ons help.
Please, tell me the best way to knockout.
Technical knockout
Moderators: Víctor Paredes, Belgarath, slowtiger
I've used a couple of those masking tools. They work but require a "different" way of working.
The one I tried (demo... I forget the name) was hideously complex but produced PERFECT masks including transparency of backgrounds etc. The trouble was doing all the preliminary setup.
The reason these tools are good even with all the extra work is that the mask is PERFECT and based on the image. You could spend the same amount of time and effort painting a mask by hand but it wouldn't be "perfect" and it would be impossible to duplicate with another similar image (like a sequence).
Usually these masking applications can be quite pricey and since I only usually mask out stills for print I don't have as much need for them.
The version of Photoshop I use has that "Extract" filter which is... uh... useless in my opinion. I have not ever produced an acceptable mask. The current version of photoshop has added a feature to the extraction tool that can mask out "noisy" backgrounds. Haven't tried it yet.
What I do is look in the image channels for a "hidden" mask. Many times there is a mask that can be "tweaked" out by duplicating or combining parts of the RGB channels. Many times I will convert to different color spaces (HSB, LAB, CMYK) to pull out one of the channels to modify for a good mask. I look for specific colors around the area to be masked so I can find those "edges" to tease out of the channels. All I need is the faintest edge and I can pull out a mask.
I like to use the channels of the image and the dodge and burn tools to create masks because using the actual image gives a more "realistic" mask. Painting by hand works but can sometimes look "fake", especially with hair.
A wonderful tool for creating masks is also the dust and scratches filter. You can smooth out rough edges and quickly remove "specks" from an imperfect mask. Dodge and burn is the main tool I use. Often I will use the blur tool with dodge and burn to tighten or loosen the mask.
I've been masking images since before Photoshop even had layers... I love masking and silhouetting images. I find it peaceful and calming for some reason.
-vern
The one I tried (demo... I forget the name) was hideously complex but produced PERFECT masks including transparency of backgrounds etc. The trouble was doing all the preliminary setup.
The reason these tools are good even with all the extra work is that the mask is PERFECT and based on the image. You could spend the same amount of time and effort painting a mask by hand but it wouldn't be "perfect" and it would be impossible to duplicate with another similar image (like a sequence).
Usually these masking applications can be quite pricey and since I only usually mask out stills for print I don't have as much need for them.
The version of Photoshop I use has that "Extract" filter which is... uh... useless in my opinion. I have not ever produced an acceptable mask. The current version of photoshop has added a feature to the extraction tool that can mask out "noisy" backgrounds. Haven't tried it yet.
What I do is look in the image channels for a "hidden" mask. Many times there is a mask that can be "tweaked" out by duplicating or combining parts of the RGB channels. Many times I will convert to different color spaces (HSB, LAB, CMYK) to pull out one of the channels to modify for a good mask. I look for specific colors around the area to be masked so I can find those "edges" to tease out of the channels. All I need is the faintest edge and I can pull out a mask.
I like to use the channels of the image and the dodge and burn tools to create masks because using the actual image gives a more "realistic" mask. Painting by hand works but can sometimes look "fake", especially with hair.
A wonderful tool for creating masks is also the dust and scratches filter. You can smooth out rough edges and quickly remove "specks" from an imperfect mask. Dodge and burn is the main tool I use. Often I will use the blur tool with dodge and burn to tighten or loosen the mask.
I've been masking images since before Photoshop even had layers... I love masking and silhouetting images. I find it peaceful and calming for some reason.
-vern
Great answer (as usual!), Vern.
Confirms my feeling there is no quick fix.
Wish I had your cheery attitude towards this kind of work, though--I find it irksome and I always wish a team of little flying monkeys was doing it for me.
(By the way, as a parting shot, one of my pet peeves is the way all vendors of masking software, Adobe included, like to demo how easy it is to use their tool by extracting a complex figure--[usually including hair, which is theoretically difficult to isolate]--from a relatively uniform background. Cheaters cheaters cheaters.
Gorfffupt!)
Confirms my feeling there is no quick fix.
Wish I had your cheery attitude towards this kind of work, though--I find it irksome and I always wish a team of little flying monkeys was doing it for me.
(By the way, as a parting shot, one of my pet peeves is the way all vendors of masking software, Adobe included, like to demo how easy it is to use their tool by extracting a complex figure--[usually including hair, which is theoretically difficult to isolate]--from a relatively uniform background. Cheaters cheaters cheaters.
Gorfffupt!)
Oh yes! Masking low res images is ten times harder. There is so little room for antialiasing. You tend to get more fringies.
My primary work is web. I do a TON of masking and cutting out of different images. I always work on the highest resolution raw images for masking even when I will reduce them way down.
And yes... those idiots always seem to use a sun tanned fashion model against a blue sky for their masking software demos.
True Story
I swear this is 100% true. Years ago a client had provided a photograph for use in a brochure or advertisement or something. It was a shot of a group of people and one of them was hidden by an object.
Apparently my reputation with Photoshop had reached ridiculous legendary proportions and the account executive thought I could just remove the object to magically reveal the hidden person in the photo.
A blank stare and utter silence was my only response to this request. Surprisingly enough it took quite a long time to explain why this wasn't possible.
This is the same account executive who wanted to know if we could print a full color brochure with only two inks... and asked if "white" counted as an ink color.
I told her that yes, all paper starts out completely black and we have to cover it with white ink first.
That incident with the photo always reminds me of an episode of "Father Ted".
Father Ted is trying to explain to Father Dougal McGuire the concept of perspective with a plastic toy cow:
"This one is small but those are... far away. Small... far away... Oh forget it!"
-vern
My primary work is web. I do a TON of masking and cutting out of different images. I always work on the highest resolution raw images for masking even when I will reduce them way down.
And yes... those idiots always seem to use a sun tanned fashion model against a blue sky for their masking software demos.
True Story
I swear this is 100% true. Years ago a client had provided a photograph for use in a brochure or advertisement or something. It was a shot of a group of people and one of them was hidden by an object.
Apparently my reputation with Photoshop had reached ridiculous legendary proportions and the account executive thought I could just remove the object to magically reveal the hidden person in the photo.
A blank stare and utter silence was my only response to this request. Surprisingly enough it took quite a long time to explain why this wasn't possible.
This is the same account executive who wanted to know if we could print a full color brochure with only two inks... and asked if "white" counted as an ink color.
I told her that yes, all paper starts out completely black and we have to cover it with white ink first.
That incident with the photo always reminds me of an episode of "Father Ted".
Father Ted is trying to explain to Father Dougal McGuire the concept of perspective with a plastic toy cow:
"This one is small but those are... far away. Small... far away... Oh forget it!"
-vern
Gee, at the risk of really spoiling your great story by my not knowing when to shut up...
...it reminded me of something I read about a cheap alternative to 4-color printing that people might have resorted to late in the twentieth century--printing red, blue, and black on yellow paper.
If handled properly, this was supposed to get you part way towards a 4-color look.
Is this an urban myth or what?
(Sorry if this is an anti-climax...!)
...it reminded me of something I read about a cheap alternative to 4-color printing that people might have resorted to late in the twentieth century--printing red, blue, and black on yellow paper.
If handled properly, this was supposed to get you part way towards a 4-color look.
Is this an urban myth or what?
(Sorry if this is an anti-climax...!)
-
funksmaname
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My lovely horse
I like your reference to Father Ted ( may he rest in peace). The Eurovision Song Contest Ep was my favourite.
I never tried that "yellow paper" trick before but back in the day when print was my main work we did all kinds of interesting things with duotones and tinted stocks.
Most designers don't like tinted papers because you can't get white. You can always print a screen of a color to get an overall tone... but you can't print white.
-----
I just got back into the print world again recently. My goodness it has changed... and stayed the same.
I was just now on the phone with a client who was at the printer picking up a job I did recently. It was one of those "color laser" toner based prints... about 500 copies for a trade magazine tip-in insert (those annoying cards that fall out and drive you nuts). $200 for color laser prints compared to $900 for offset printing... that's a no brainer.
The crazy lady at the print shop had him convinced that the "ink" on the insert would run like crazy if even a tiny drop of water got on it... she was trying to get him to laminate... all... 500 copies.
I told him toner based printing DOES NOT RUN! The toner is heat fused to the paper at high temperature it ain't going anywhere.
I said to him, "If you don't believe me, take one of the prints and pour some water on it!"
I had a color print in front of me and ran it under the faucet just to make sure. It wouldn't run even when I rubbed it under the water.
Laminating a freaking mag insert... sheesh... what people won't stoop to to make a buck.
-vern
Most designers don't like tinted papers because you can't get white. You can always print a screen of a color to get an overall tone... but you can't print white.
-----
I just got back into the print world again recently. My goodness it has changed... and stayed the same.
I was just now on the phone with a client who was at the printer picking up a job I did recently. It was one of those "color laser" toner based prints... about 500 copies for a trade magazine tip-in insert (those annoying cards that fall out and drive you nuts). $200 for color laser prints compared to $900 for offset printing... that's a no brainer.
The crazy lady at the print shop had him convinced that the "ink" on the insert would run like crazy if even a tiny drop of water got on it... she was trying to get him to laminate... all... 500 copies.
I told him toner based printing DOES NOT RUN! The toner is heat fused to the paper at high temperature it ain't going anywhere.
I said to him, "If you don't believe me, take one of the prints and pour some water on it!"
I had a color print in front of me and ran it under the faucet just to make sure. It wouldn't run even when I rubbed it under the water.
Laminating a freaking mag insert... sheesh... what people won't stoop to to make a buck.
-vern