In the introductory tutorials it shows to rig a character with their parts spaced out. When I first started AS I rigged my characters the same way, but then I started rigging them as the would appear in the animation (not spaced) and it made them look less like puppets. I was wondering which way is better.
Michael
Character Rig
Moderators: Víctor Paredes, Belgarath, slowtiger
It took me a while to figure it out, but there's a reason behind this "spacing out".
If you only use flexible binding, all bones of your bone layer will affect all artwork on all layers inside the bone layer. Each bone's influence will decrease over distance, but you will end up with a rig where each bone's movement affects artwork which it should not move.
If you spread the artwork wide apart and place the bones directly over them, every bone's influence will only affect the body part it should affect. This "separated influence" is maintained even if you place all body parts to where they belong with the offset bone tool.
Of course you still can draw all body parts at the place where they belong, then spread them apart, rig them to their bones, and use the offset bone tool to re-position them.
If you only use layer or region binding which treats your artwork like rigid pieces, the above is not necessary, but still it is easier to work that way if just to make it easier to select all the points you want.
If you only use flexible binding, all bones of your bone layer will affect all artwork on all layers inside the bone layer. Each bone's influence will decrease over distance, but you will end up with a rig where each bone's movement affects artwork which it should not move.
If you spread the artwork wide apart and place the bones directly over them, every bone's influence will only affect the body part it should affect. This "separated influence" is maintained even if you place all body parts to where they belong with the offset bone tool.
Of course you still can draw all body parts at the place where they belong, then spread them apart, rig them to their bones, and use the offset bone tool to re-position them.
If you only use layer or region binding which treats your artwork like rigid pieces, the above is not necessary, but still it is easier to work that way if just to make it easier to select all the points you want.
Last edited by slowtiger on Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Offsetting bones is a must for any rig in my opinion. In most rigs without it there will be some problematic bone "overlap".
If the legs are close together one leg bone could be effecting the other and visa versa. Sometimes you need a larger bone strength to cover points and a smaller bone with less strength nearby would be overridden by the larger stronger bone.
Just draw the initial character exactly the way you want it to appear normally without any offset. Render an image of the final character and import as an image layer for reference. Move the limbs or parts apart and use the reference image layer as a guide to offset them back the way you had it.
Offset is also good if you have a character drawn in a certain type of pose. You can offset the parts that overlap or touch, use the offset tool to put them back and start animating from that initial pose. I don't usually do this, I like to create the standard starting pose with legs and arms out and straight, then pose the character after rigging.
Do it anyway that makes you happy. I am only making suggestions based on my own experience.
-vern
If the legs are close together one leg bone could be effecting the other and visa versa. Sometimes you need a larger bone strength to cover points and a smaller bone with less strength nearby would be overridden by the larger stronger bone.
Just draw the initial character exactly the way you want it to appear normally without any offset. Render an image of the final character and import as an image layer for reference. Move the limbs or parts apart and use the reference image layer as a guide to offset them back the way you had it.
Offset is also good if you have a character drawn in a certain type of pose. You can offset the parts that overlap or touch, use the offset tool to put them back and start animating from that initial pose. I don't usually do this, I like to create the standard starting pose with legs and arms out and straight, then pose the character after rigging.
Do it anyway that makes you happy. I am only making suggestions based on my own experience.
-vern
Thanks guys, thats been on my mind for a while. I guess it's a matter of what look your going for. My latest models are rigged with point binding and thats worked well for me. I'll have to venture more into it. I've been using this program for 6 months and I still haven't learned everything about it.
Thanks,
Michael
Thanks,
Michael
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temujin143
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 5:55 am
Hi. What if I want a character with interchangeable costume? How would I go about it using this method?heyvern wrote:Offsetting bones is a must for any rig in my opinion. In most rigs without it there will be some problematic bone "overlap".
If the legs are close together one leg bone could be effecting the other and visa versa. Sometimes you need a larger bone strength to cover points and a smaller bone with less strength nearby would be overridden by the larger stronger bone.
Just draw the initial character exactly the way you want it to appear normally without any offset. Render an image of the final character and import as an image layer for reference. Move the limbs or parts apart and use the reference image layer as a guide to offset them back the way you had it.
Offset is also good if you have a character drawn in a certain type of pose. You can offset the parts that overlap or touch, use the offset tool to put them back and start animating from that initial pose. I don't usually do this, I like to create the standard starting pose with legs and arms out and straight, then pose the character after rigging.
Do it anyway that makes you happy. I am only making suggestions based on my own experience.
-vern
Thanks in advance.
I'm just a newbie, but here's how I figured out to rig a character with the limbs spaced out:
http://fiziwig.com/anim/index03.php
In my newer experiments I'm finding it more useful to put the limbs on their own layers. That way there's no interference, between bones, and no problem with what a bone controls, and the character can be designed all put together. See, for example, http://fiziwig.com/anim/index09.php
--gary
http://fiziwig.com/anim/index03.php
In my newer experiments I'm finding it more useful to put the limbs on their own layers. That way there's no interference, between bones, and no problem with what a bone controls, and the character can be designed all put together. See, for example, http://fiziwig.com/anim/index09.php
--gary
I am going to throw out a bit of advice from my own experience.
I was a newbie once too. Went through all of these types of choices.
When I first bought Moho a few years ago I started out putting limbs (arms and legs) in their own bone layers. At first this worked for me during character set up but eventually as I started to work on the actual animation I found that it was so FRUSTRATING and slow to constantly switch from one bone layer to the next just to animate the arms and legs individually. I was kicking myself for setting it up that way.
Here is how I look at:
The set up of a character only needs to be done ONCE, but you have to animate that character many many times. The easier it is to animate and keep track of key frames the happier you will be and the more fun you will have even if the set up is a bit trickier.
I strongly lean towards Fiziwig's first example. The limbs are on separate layers but all the bones are on one layer. When you start to animate you will find this to be MUCH simpler to use.
Imagine doing a walk cycle with each leg and each arm a different bone layer! (I don't have to imagine. I did it that way in the past. Very slow and frustrating).
It was SO bad at one point I wrote a script so that I could control all those separate bone layers with ONE master bone layer. Since then I find putting all the bones on one layer and using bone offset much easier. I haven't needed to use my bone slave script in ages.
Bone offset is one of the most powerful tools in AS. With that feature you don't really need nested bone layers. I rarely use nested bone layers anymore except for hands/fingers/face.
I am obsessed with having all animation controlled just by bones on one layer as much as possible (I even have a script to change switch layers with bones). You don't have to take it that far of course.
-vern
I was a newbie once too. Went through all of these types of choices.
When I first bought Moho a few years ago I started out putting limbs (arms and legs) in their own bone layers. At first this worked for me during character set up but eventually as I started to work on the actual animation I found that it was so FRUSTRATING and slow to constantly switch from one bone layer to the next just to animate the arms and legs individually. I was kicking myself for setting it up that way.
Here is how I look at:
The set up of a character only needs to be done ONCE, but you have to animate that character many many times. The easier it is to animate and keep track of key frames the happier you will be and the more fun you will have even if the set up is a bit trickier.
I strongly lean towards Fiziwig's first example. The limbs are on separate layers but all the bones are on one layer. When you start to animate you will find this to be MUCH simpler to use.
Imagine doing a walk cycle with each leg and each arm a different bone layer! (I don't have to imagine. I did it that way in the past. Very slow and frustrating).
It was SO bad at one point I wrote a script so that I could control all those separate bone layers with ONE master bone layer. Since then I find putting all the bones on one layer and using bone offset much easier. I haven't needed to use my bone slave script in ages.
Bone offset is one of the most powerful tools in AS. With that feature you don't really need nested bone layers. I rarely use nested bone layers anymore except for hands/fingers/face.
I am obsessed with having all animation controlled just by bones on one layer as much as possible (I even have a script to change switch layers with bones). You don't have to take it that far of course.
-vern
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temujin143
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 5:55 am
I guess having the drawing in one vector layer and one continous shape would allow me to skip the part of binding the seems manually.
and i guess if i needed a new custome i would just have to draw it again in one vector layer separate from the character layer.
then i would just stretch the custome again like i did with the character layer.
or not have the costume as one continues shape (whichever works best).
Thanks guys.
You're a life line.
and i guess if i needed a new custome i would just have to draw it again in one vector layer separate from the character layer.
then i would just stretch the custome again like i did with the character layer.
or not have the costume as one continues shape (whichever works best).
Thanks guys.
You're a life line.
Hey Vern,heyvern wrote:I am going to throw out a bit of advice from my own experience.
I was a newbie once too. Went through all of these types of choices.
When I first bought Moho a few years ago I started out putting limbs (arms and legs) in their own bone layers. At first this worked for me during character set up but eventually as I started to work on the actual animation I found that it was so FRUSTRATING and slow to constantly switch from one bone layer to the next just to animate the arms and legs individually. I was kicking myself for setting it up that way.
-vern
I see your point. I'm using multiple layers right now because I'm trying to simulate 3D turns, which seem easiest to do on multiple layers. Yes, it is more time consuming to animate a multi-layer character, BUT... that multi-layer character can walk in a circle, being seen from all angles while doing so.
For flat characters that will never turn, yes, use only one layer. For simulated 3D turns, go multi-layer.
Just my 2 cents worth. (as a newbie)
--gary
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temujin143
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 5:55 am
Hi Fiziwig. I was thinking along the line of what this guy is doing. viewtopic.php?t=8967&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
He uses just one layer and yet his character turns.
He uses just one layer and yet his character turns.
That rig is amazing. I've incorporated elements of it into my own characters.
Best thing to do is download and study it to see how it works. It is pretty ingenious.
Fiziwig,
About multiple layers. YES use multiple vector layers but there is no need for multiple bone layers. Using bone offset eliminates the need for multiple nested bone layers. You can put those bones in the same layer.
Like I said you will find later that animating becomes a tiresome and confusing chore when all the key frames are scattered over 4 or 5 bone layers (2 legs, 2 arms, body etc). Changing the timing of a walk cycle, or shifting a section of the animation in the time line becomes a complex task as you have to move the keys of several bones on several layers etc etc.
Of course switch layers are another story. I avoid them for body turns. I tried that before... yikes, to animate a character that way was very time consuming and laborious. All those switch layers and effort for a turn effect that is used only infrequently. I prefer to use a few bones to shift parts around on the main bone layer like this:
A lot of this is based on elements of the link to that other thread in the above post. It uses bone scaling extensively (and sorry, a custom aim script. It could work without that though and still be easier to animate than using nested bone layers and switches)
http://www.lowrestv.com/moho_stuff/scripts/aim_rig2.mov
http://www.lowrestv.com/moho_stuff/scri ... ot_rig.mov
-vern
Best thing to do is download and study it to see how it works. It is pretty ingenious.
Fiziwig,
About multiple layers. YES use multiple vector layers but there is no need for multiple bone layers. Using bone offset eliminates the need for multiple nested bone layers. You can put those bones in the same layer.
Like I said you will find later that animating becomes a tiresome and confusing chore when all the key frames are scattered over 4 or 5 bone layers (2 legs, 2 arms, body etc). Changing the timing of a walk cycle, or shifting a section of the animation in the time line becomes a complex task as you have to move the keys of several bones on several layers etc etc.
Of course switch layers are another story. I avoid them for body turns. I tried that before... yikes, to animate a character that way was very time consuming and laborious. All those switch layers and effort for a turn effect that is used only infrequently. I prefer to use a few bones to shift parts around on the main bone layer like this:
A lot of this is based on elements of the link to that other thread in the above post. It uses bone scaling extensively (and sorry, a custom aim script. It could work without that though and still be easier to animate than using nested bone layers and switches)
http://www.lowrestv.com/moho_stuff/scripts/aim_rig2.mov
http://www.lowrestv.com/moho_stuff/scri ... ot_rig.mov
-vern
I don't recommend to put everything into just one bone layer. If I need to change things, it's much easier to have separate timelines for them.
Imagine doing a walk cycle. The legs are easy, also the body's up and down. But what if my character needs to lift his arm and point somewhere at one moment? Impossible if the arms are not on a different timeline, means a separate bone layer, from the legs.
Imagine doing a walk cycle. The legs are easy, also the body's up and down. But what if my character needs to lift his arm and point somewhere at one moment? Impossible if the arms are not on a different timeline, means a separate bone layer, from the legs.
heyvern wrote: Fiziwig,
About multiple layers. YES use multiple vector layers but there is no need for multiple bone layers. Using bone offset eliminates the need for multiple nested bone layers. You can put those bones in the same layer.
-vern
I can see that I need to have a lot more experience before I start making choices about what works best for me.slowtiger wrote:I don't recommend to put everything into just one bone layer. If I need to change things, it's much easier to have separate timelines for them.
Imagine doing a walk cycle. The legs are easy, also the body's up and down. But what if my character needs to lift his arm and point somewhere at one moment? Impossible if the arms are not on a different timeline, means a separate bone layer, from the legs.
Once I have rigged more than just two characters I will have to put off deciding. In the mean time, I'll just keep trying all the various different ways of doing the job.
--gary