D.K
Discussion: Is Mocap Really Animation?
Moderators: Víctor Paredes, Belgarath, slowtiger
Unless it's in my A:M account 'in folder' then no, I won't have it now. But yes, guarantee 100% it was you. However, I'm annoyed with myself for bringing it up in this discussion and I apologise for that."Accidentally" sent you an email? If you still have it could you send it to me? I don't think that was me who did that.
A couple of weeks ago I was working for 6 weeks on motion capture files and it's the most tedious thing I've ever done. After that experience I think just the mention of mocap and I freak
Luckily the survey that was posted on here the other day showed that most people don't like mocap (although I suspect most of them were animators so the poll was slightly flawed)
Motion Capture is Animation.
I have worked in large production video games and had to consistently use motion capture. I have also and currently worked in all hand key-framed production houses. Does this mean I'm only half an animator?
I do agree that Motion Capture doesn't look great. That's where the priniciples of animation come in, especially exaggeration. Motion Capture captures true human motion, which is not very animated, but if you know how to manipulate it you can come up with some beautiful work. Check out the animation page on my website and look at the 'evolution of mocap' videos. That's how I used motion capture. To take a real human motion and make it more 'animated'. So am I not an animator because I did that with Motion Capture. Then look at my demo reel. Anything that isn't basketball, football or baseball is all hand keyframed. Now am I an animator.
I also agree with vern. On a large scale project it comes down to quality and quantity issues. How much animation you need versus how many animators you have divided by the time you have to finalize it. It's a lot quicker to capture 300 motions in one day and edite them with 3-5 animators than it is to do those 300-600 motions with the same 3-5 animators(I say 300-600 because a good Mocap Director will combine moves to do a single shot... more bang for the buck).
I do have to say that even though I do believe MotionCapture is animation, I don't believe it is always 'Art'. Then again, hand key framed animation isn't always art either. It is the animator/artist that brings the animation to life. That is true whether you use MoCap or not.
I do agree that Motion Capture doesn't look great. That's where the priniciples of animation come in, especially exaggeration. Motion Capture captures true human motion, which is not very animated, but if you know how to manipulate it you can come up with some beautiful work. Check out the animation page on my website and look at the 'evolution of mocap' videos. That's how I used motion capture. To take a real human motion and make it more 'animated'. So am I not an animator because I did that with Motion Capture. Then look at my demo reel. Anything that isn't basketball, football or baseball is all hand keyframed. Now am I an animator.
I also agree with vern. On a large scale project it comes down to quality and quantity issues. How much animation you need versus how many animators you have divided by the time you have to finalize it. It's a lot quicker to capture 300 motions in one day and edite them with 3-5 animators than it is to do those 300-600 motions with the same 3-5 animators(I say 300-600 because a good Mocap Director will combine moves to do a single shot... more bang for the buck).
I do have to say that even though I do believe MotionCapture is animation, I don't believe it is always 'Art'. Then again, hand key framed animation isn't always art either. It is the animator/artist that brings the animation to life. That is true whether you use MoCap or not.
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synthsin75
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I agree....
Our teachers had a saying in college.
If you can film something live-action why bother animating it?
If you can film something live-action why bother animating it?
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synthsin75
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great???
either...
1) they weren't great artists, but thought they were. I knew a lot of people that thought they were great artists and didn't believe/listen to the instructors. They continued to not be great artists, but still thought they were. Now they work at kinkos.
2) they didn't go to a good school. A great artist can be better than the school, in that case they leave the school and move on and are still great artists. Case in point, Kevin Llewelyn... www.puddnhead.com
3) They had no drive and were lazy.
Art schools don't kill great artists, art school weeds out wannabes.
Great artists are.
1) they weren't great artists, but thought they were. I knew a lot of people that thought they were great artists and didn't believe/listen to the instructors. They continued to not be great artists, but still thought they were. Now they work at kinkos.
2) they didn't go to a good school. A great artist can be better than the school, in that case they leave the school and move on and are still great artists. Case in point, Kevin Llewelyn... www.puddnhead.com
3) They had no drive and were lazy.
Art schools don't kill great artists, art school weeds out wannabes.
Great artists are.
Re: Motion Capture is Animation.
I snipped this, but the whole things reads like a VERY good answer.empty wrote:I have worked in large production video games . . .
...I do have to say that even though I do believe MotionCapture is animation, I don't believe it is always 'Art'. Then again, hand key framed animation isn't always art either. It is the animator/artist that brings the animation to life. That is true whether you use MoCap or not.
It was very helpful to me personally.
I also downloaded one of your baseball animations.
It looks splendid.
The little nuances of the movement are very telling.
Yeah, that's art.
My take on this is a simple one.
MoCap makes things move. Not the same as animation, which by its very essence is an abstraction of movement. It is like calling a photograph a painting. Both are images, one hyper-accurate in every detail, the other a distillation of line, colour and form: The latter adds a dimension mechanics simply cannot achieve, resulting in something which is much more than "real life".
Animation often means exaggeration of timing, movement and spacial information, giving good animation its appeal. That mechanically is not achievable.
It doesn't mean MoCap doesn't have its play, because it clearly does, especially in games.
But the audience figures place MoCap derived work at the bottom of what they like.
For that reason, 'tweened animation and pose-to-pose completed "by eye", is the key to most people's perception of "what is animation". For them, mechanically derived 'animation' simply doesn't cut the mustard.
Rhoel
MoCap makes things move. Not the same as animation, which by its very essence is an abstraction of movement. It is like calling a photograph a painting. Both are images, one hyper-accurate in every detail, the other a distillation of line, colour and form: The latter adds a dimension mechanics simply cannot achieve, resulting in something which is much more than "real life".
Animation often means exaggeration of timing, movement and spacial information, giving good animation its appeal. That mechanically is not achievable.
It doesn't mean MoCap doesn't have its play, because it clearly does, especially in games.
But the audience figures place MoCap derived work at the bottom of what they like.
For that reason, 'tweened animation and pose-to-pose completed "by eye", is the key to most people's perception of "what is animation". For them, mechanically derived 'animation' simply doesn't cut the mustard.
Rhoel
I think the previous comment about the "quality" of the mocap is important too.
You say that a photograph is not a painting? What about photo "artists" who use dodging and burning, over and under exposure when printing and shifting of colors? What about photorealism in paintings? For a long time I considered myself a "photorealist" painter. I used the airbrush and would create surrealistic paintings from photographic referenec. There can be a big gray are about what qualifies as "artistic". Obviously all the pictures taken by "Aunt Ethel" with her disposable camera are not "art"... but sometimes it can be.
Another aspect is how the realism is used. In a movie like spiderman they didn't use mocap exclusively. The director wanted to "match" the comic book hero poses while still looking "realistic". This would be "animation" but at the same time mocap was used as well. Where does the animation stop and the "mocap" begin?
Someone over at the Animation:Master forum just created a new application that uses simple stickers on your face and a video camera to do lip sync and face acting and saves out actions that can be used with A:M models. There are options in the tool to add in exaggeration and of course you can go in and tweak the captured motion.
Obviously not everyone is going to get the same quality results. It takes an animator's eyes and skill to know how to tweak those motions. Mocap saves time and in this business we all know that time is money.
I agree that not all mocap is... good. But when it is good it displays artistic skill as well as technical skill. Sometimes artists have to be technicians.
-vern
You say that a photograph is not a painting? What about photo "artists" who use dodging and burning, over and under exposure when printing and shifting of colors? What about photorealism in paintings? For a long time I considered myself a "photorealist" painter. I used the airbrush and would create surrealistic paintings from photographic referenec. There can be a big gray are about what qualifies as "artistic". Obviously all the pictures taken by "Aunt Ethel" with her disposable camera are not "art"... but sometimes it can be.
Another aspect is how the realism is used. In a movie like spiderman they didn't use mocap exclusively. The director wanted to "match" the comic book hero poses while still looking "realistic". This would be "animation" but at the same time mocap was used as well. Where does the animation stop and the "mocap" begin?
Someone over at the Animation:Master forum just created a new application that uses simple stickers on your face and a video camera to do lip sync and face acting and saves out actions that can be used with A:M models. There are options in the tool to add in exaggeration and of course you can go in and tweak the captured motion.
Obviously not everyone is going to get the same quality results. It takes an animator's eyes and skill to know how to tweak those motions. Mocap saves time and in this business we all know that time is money.
I agree that not all mocap is... good. But when it is good it displays artistic skill as well as technical skill. Sometimes artists have to be technicians.
-vern
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patricia3d
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I have used mocap in Blender and I want to use in AS also I don't know how to go ahead.
My Blender Mpcap Short is http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 1469612271
My Blender Mpcap Short is http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 1469612271
Steamed pudding
Well I don't care if it is or isn't , I think it would be 'neat' if you could use it in anime.
Mocap is like puppetry or acting, its a performance just as animation using key frames or paper or stop motion,so it's what you do with it that counts.
In animation master you can strap a skeleton for bvh onto an AM skeleton rig .
Do you think it would be possible to achieve this in anime?
It could produce some cool results, I think a discussion on this concept would be much more productive. Could a layer script do it?
After we marvel at the results we could then decide if it is art, animation or steamed pudding.
Oh that blender stuff is pretty crazy kkrawal, I didn't know blender was so flexible.
Mocap is like puppetry or acting, its a performance just as animation using key frames or paper or stop motion,so it's what you do with it that counts.
In animation master you can strap a skeleton for bvh onto an AM skeleton rig .
Do you think it would be possible to achieve this in anime?
It could produce some cool results, I think a discussion on this concept would be much more productive. Could a layer script do it?
After we marvel at the results we could then decide if it is art, animation or steamed pudding.
Oh that blender stuff is pretty crazy kkrawal, I didn't know blender was so flexible.
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synthsin75
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Is tracing really drawing? No.
I personally find MoCap a real turn-off whenever I notice it and I usually change the channel. Sometimes I can watch it and appreciate it as a technical accomplishment, while the real artistic achievement is the character modeling and the animation of subtle facial expression and other tweaks which are actually animated by an animator.
If I were forced to use it, I would use it as a rough outline and I would tweak the hell out of it till it didn't look MoCap at all.
I feel the same way about rotoscoping.
I personally find MoCap a real turn-off whenever I notice it and I usually change the channel. Sometimes I can watch it and appreciate it as a technical accomplishment, while the real artistic achievement is the character modeling and the animation of subtle facial expression and other tweaks which are actually animated by an animator.
If I were forced to use it, I would use it as a rough outline and I would tweak the hell out of it till it didn't look MoCap at all.
I feel the same way about rotoscoping.
No , no no not rotoscoping , you've got me all wrong synth.
It's not what I mean at all.
We don't manually keyframe using a movie to trace.
WE use our skeleton and strap, as you would a puppeteer to the puppet a BVH skeleton, to it.
The bvh skeleton moves from the mocap movement and the anime skeleton ( which has its bones rig controlled by selected bones in the bvh rig) is automatically translated , rotated etc to whatever bones and whatever end we might deem appropriate.
I assume though it's not possible to get the bvh in to even talk to the anime rig, even with scripting.
It would be good though if we COULD implement a pixel tracking system to
do a rotocap setup and have our bones controlled by them.
I think any artform can be done badly or well, and sorry 2NER but did you turn off king kong and did you really care which movements were performance and which where tweaked or keyframed? I doubt it.
It's not what I mean at all.
We don't manually keyframe using a movie to trace.
WE use our skeleton and strap, as you would a puppeteer to the puppet a BVH skeleton, to it.
The bvh skeleton moves from the mocap movement and the anime skeleton ( which has its bones rig controlled by selected bones in the bvh rig) is automatically translated , rotated etc to whatever bones and whatever end we might deem appropriate.
I assume though it's not possible to get the bvh in to even talk to the anime rig, even with scripting.
It would be good though if we COULD implement a pixel tracking system to
do a rotocap setup and have our bones controlled by them.
I think any artform can be done badly or well, and sorry 2NER but did you turn off king kong and did you really care which movements were performance and which where tweaked or keyframed? I doubt it.
Last edited by chucky on Tue May 13, 2008 5:26 am, edited 1 time in total.