Man... what an opportunity. <sigh>
I keep wishing I could just finish my idea of fully rigged and usable characters. I keep getting distracted. I could do this, create characters completely done and ready to use, but I'm such an obsessive detail freak. I keep thinking it needs to be absolutely perfect.
I get stuck on the idea of having "turnable" characters. I should just skip that and have a front, side and 3/4 view rigged characters. Easier than trying to fix everything with scripts.
Hearing about the "problems" with the Rose character explains a lot. That isn't the way to go. It is like selling a "painting". It's fun to look at and change the poses but beyond just hanging it on the wall and looking at it, it has no real use. Plus it is too specific.
To be fair, all the work that went into it is probably worth the original high price. But in reality, the people who need to buy characters need something a lot more versatile and even generic... and also easy to modify.
No phonemes? For $40? I had no idea. I had planned to sell characters for half that with full interpolated phonemes. Good grief it's easy enough to do. Of all the difficult parts of designing a simple rigged character for use in AS, the phonemes is the easiest.
I'll keep trying.
-vern
Rose Agent Character Pack on sale at CP
Moderators: Víctor Paredes, Belgarath, slowtiger
At the risk of getting very much off-topic, I think that is unwise.mkelley wrote:on the forums I run I have editing disabled after five minutes
I feel that it's absolutely critical for a community to enable people to reconsider and revise their remarks.
At one time or another, I've written various foolish, ignorant, or careless remarks, and many of us have done so.
I'm very grateful that my mistakes were not always frozen in stone to harm both me and others.
In a larger sense, it has taken me a long time to learn that there's only a partial truth to the folk wisdom, "honesty is the best policy."
I am painfully learning that the good from speaking the truth needs to be balanced against so many other nuanced goods and evils, same as any other action.
Need a really simple example? Try this:
"Well, Miss Emily, are you harboring any escaped slaves in that basement?"
Off topic repy:
I see the pluses and minuses of turning off editing. I agree it is important to allow editing.
On the other hand, some people get... angry... and delete all of their posts (this happened on another forum and that person had created many useful tutorials. They all disappeared). Others will say something horrible to annoy... and then change it before someone complains.
The big plus are serious contributors to the forum. Those who need to go back and edit their posts for content and links and updates so the new information stays at the top.
I think editing of posts is needed... it could be that the time frame for allowing a member to have this ability needs to be a long one. You shouldn't be able to sign up and have the ability to edit your posts that same day.
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mkelly, any comments on the "value" of the Rose Agent product has no reflection on the artists talent. The artist we all know is VERY VERY TALENTED. Your comments in no way demean the artistic talent.
However it isn't the "quality" of the product at question, it is its usefulness, its value as a reusable character in AS. That I have to agree with. It doesn't seem to be the kind of thing that has a lot of use. At best it is a novelty to "play" with and maybe learn some techniques from.
-vern
I see the pluses and minuses of turning off editing. I agree it is important to allow editing.
On the other hand, some people get... angry... and delete all of their posts (this happened on another forum and that person had created many useful tutorials. They all disappeared). Others will say something horrible to annoy... and then change it before someone complains.
The big plus are serious contributors to the forum. Those who need to go back and edit their posts for content and links and updates so the new information stays at the top.
I think editing of posts is needed... it could be that the time frame for allowing a member to have this ability needs to be a long one. You shouldn't be able to sign up and have the ability to edit your posts that same day.
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mkelly, any comments on the "value" of the Rose Agent product has no reflection on the artists talent. The artist we all know is VERY VERY TALENTED. Your comments in no way demean the artistic talent.
However it isn't the "quality" of the product at question, it is its usefulness, its value as a reusable character in AS. That I have to agree with. It doesn't seem to be the kind of thing that has a lot of use. At best it is a novelty to "play" with and maybe learn some techniques from.
-vern
Wow, I have to say I feel most of you have really missed the boat on the Rose Agent character. I bought it for the full price months ago and loved it.
I took the 17 swf files and made a Quicktime movie with chapter settings highlighting how Sang did certain things. I have watched it and rewatched numerous times. How he used the drawing tools in ASP to create the eyes, mouth, the head, hair etc. How he used point animation to do things like the eyes blinking, the mouth animation, the limited turns of the face.
I wasn't expecting some fully rigged character but just some glimpses of how Sang does his thing. I have bought some of his other characters as well. The thing I don't understand is why most everybody wants a character that can do it all. It seems the vast majority of you want 3 views of a character and expect that to be able to handle any situation.
If GreyKid ever does come out with their book I bet most of you will be disappointed. I have read all of their posts in this forum and it seems that when they construct their characters they just don't do 3 views. Wasn't it Knunck who said that they had 14 models for just one character in an animation? And I have read where Stu/GreyKid said that they keep bones to a minimum and rarely use switch layers. So, what are they doing exactly?
For all the talk of bones in ASP, I feel it is the most over-rated and over-hyped feature of ASP. That may sound blasphemous to most of you I know, but to me, and I think Sang and GreyKid would agree, the killer feature of Anime Studio Pro is the POINT ANIMATION.
I don't think this is just a style that is only for realism. In my learning the program this is the avenue that I am traveling. I want to do as much with point animation as I can because it just seems more powerful, more nuanced and more alive! I see examples of characters with all of these fancy, complicated bone setups yet the end result looks deadly, mechanical and like it was made with a computer.
Of course as they say, your mileage may vary.
I took the 17 swf files and made a Quicktime movie with chapter settings highlighting how Sang did certain things. I have watched it and rewatched numerous times. How he used the drawing tools in ASP to create the eyes, mouth, the head, hair etc. How he used point animation to do things like the eyes blinking, the mouth animation, the limited turns of the face.
I wasn't expecting some fully rigged character but just some glimpses of how Sang does his thing. I have bought some of his other characters as well. The thing I don't understand is why most everybody wants a character that can do it all. It seems the vast majority of you want 3 views of a character and expect that to be able to handle any situation.
If GreyKid ever does come out with their book I bet most of you will be disappointed. I have read all of their posts in this forum and it seems that when they construct their characters they just don't do 3 views. Wasn't it Knunck who said that they had 14 models for just one character in an animation? And I have read where Stu/GreyKid said that they keep bones to a minimum and rarely use switch layers. So, what are they doing exactly?
For all the talk of bones in ASP, I feel it is the most over-rated and over-hyped feature of ASP. That may sound blasphemous to most of you I know, but to me, and I think Sang and GreyKid would agree, the killer feature of Anime Studio Pro is the POINT ANIMATION.
I don't think this is just a style that is only for realism. In my learning the program this is the avenue that I am traveling. I want to do as much with point animation as I can because it just seems more powerful, more nuanced and more alive! I see examples of characters with all of these fancy, complicated bone setups yet the end result looks deadly, mechanical and like it was made with a computer.
Of course as they say, your mileage may vary.
Well, now I guess I'm going to have to chime in again <bg>.
(And for those who say editing should be allowed, just what do you think would happen if I could still edit my posts here? I could make ALL of you look pretty foolish -- which is *exactly* why you cannot allow posts to be edited post facto, at least for sure after any replies have been made to the thread. Now, I grant you there is *something* to be said for allowing editing to those posts that have not yet been replied to but I'll also point out that such cases are the exception rather than the rule).
I specifically want to reply to scunge because I think he/she misses MY point. They seem to assume I was ragging on the Rose character because I somehow thought it should be completely ready to use in my work. I didn't buy it with that expectation at all -- I knew I'd never use it. All I wanted was to see if there were some techniques involved (mostly in rigging) that I could use in my own work.
Now, it turns out there aren't, that my own work is for me much more sophisticated in terms of usage, but I also think I got (mostly) my money's worth. But what I vehemently state (and apparently have to keep coming back to) is the price of this character is WAY out of line with the value received.
I'm not sure what value scunge received from this character because the videos that show how the character was created (along with the point animation) are available for free (and have been for quite some time). They seem to think these swf files are worth $40 -- if so, why are they free? No, the price of the purchase is for *the character* and that's what is ridiculous.
And the character is designed for bone animation -- make no mistake about that. Someone might say "how wonderful point animation is" but this character was very carefully rigged for bones (and done so in a manner that is not only very difficult to do but also not very efficient -- plus it doesn't even work well). I don't think the artist ever intended the character to be animated using only point animation... it's just that they don't intend to use switch or bone animation for the facial expressions.
Perhaps this whole thing could have been resolved by a more detailed explanation of what exactly was included with Rose -- I dunno. Perhaps caveat emptor.
I'd love to buy D.K.'s character (assuming the cost was reasonable :>) and would certainly buy any of Vern's stuff for the same reason I bought this -- I do want to learn and there's no question I don't know it all. And I do not regret buying Rose... for $4.
(And for those who say editing should be allowed, just what do you think would happen if I could still edit my posts here? I could make ALL of you look pretty foolish -- which is *exactly* why you cannot allow posts to be edited post facto, at least for sure after any replies have been made to the thread. Now, I grant you there is *something* to be said for allowing editing to those posts that have not yet been replied to but I'll also point out that such cases are the exception rather than the rule).
I specifically want to reply to scunge because I think he/she misses MY point. They seem to assume I was ragging on the Rose character because I somehow thought it should be completely ready to use in my work. I didn't buy it with that expectation at all -- I knew I'd never use it. All I wanted was to see if there were some techniques involved (mostly in rigging) that I could use in my own work.
Now, it turns out there aren't, that my own work is for me much more sophisticated in terms of usage, but I also think I got (mostly) my money's worth. But what I vehemently state (and apparently have to keep coming back to) is the price of this character is WAY out of line with the value received.
I'm not sure what value scunge received from this character because the videos that show how the character was created (along with the point animation) are available for free (and have been for quite some time). They seem to think these swf files are worth $40 -- if so, why are they free? No, the price of the purchase is for *the character* and that's what is ridiculous.
And the character is designed for bone animation -- make no mistake about that. Someone might say "how wonderful point animation is" but this character was very carefully rigged for bones (and done so in a manner that is not only very difficult to do but also not very efficient -- plus it doesn't even work well). I don't think the artist ever intended the character to be animated using only point animation... it's just that they don't intend to use switch or bone animation for the facial expressions.
Perhaps this whole thing could have been resolved by a more detailed explanation of what exactly was included with Rose -- I dunno. Perhaps caveat emptor.
I'd love to buy D.K.'s character (assuming the cost was reasonable :>) and would certainly buy any of Vern's stuff for the same reason I bought this -- I do want to learn and there's no question I don't know it all. And I do not regret buying Rose... for $4.
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synthsin75
- Posts: 10265
- Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:20 pm
- Location: Oklahoma
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Well I'm really glad that someone feels they got their moneys worth at full price. Perhaps Rose fills a need I'm not aware of. Many people complain about the drawing tools in AS, so maybe Sangs masterful use of them help ease that discomfort.
I think my biggest problem is just that Content Paradise has advertised it as being 'fully realized'. That implied that it is ready to go with lip-sync, etc. But like I said earlier, it probably is fairly complete for how Sang works.
That's probably a huge problem for anyone who creates content for AS. AS is so powerful that there are usually at least three different ways to accomplish the same animation task.
Mmm, I wonder if Sang (or Content Paradise? I'm not sure how that works ) would mind if someone (me) refined Rose into a more 'fully realized' character.
Some things in AS are considered 'standard operation'. Basically, based on the in-programm tutorials, things like Switch layer lip-sync, multi-layer construction, and flexible bone manipulation are expected. To each his own, but I think you should take customer expectation into account when making a commercial product.
I think my biggest problem is just that Content Paradise has advertised it as being 'fully realized'. That implied that it is ready to go with lip-sync, etc. But like I said earlier, it probably is fairly complete for how Sang works.
That's probably a huge problem for anyone who creates content for AS. AS is so powerful that there are usually at least three different ways to accomplish the same animation task.
Mmm, I wonder if Sang (or Content Paradise? I'm not sure how that works ) would mind if someone (me) refined Rose into a more 'fully realized' character.
Some things in AS are considered 'standard operation'. Basically, based on the in-programm tutorials, things like Switch layer lip-sync, multi-layer construction, and flexible bone manipulation are expected. To each his own, but I think you should take customer expectation into account when making a commercial product.
I LOVE SANG'S WORK!
I think that guy is a genius with AS. He is brilliant. He does things with AS that blow my mind. To be fair, I have not purchased the Rose Agent character. I should buy it now that is in a comfortable range for something I will never use for anything but to look at in amazement.
To me... that is the issue. Pricing of ANYTHING is very hard. Too high, and the expectations go up as well. Too low, and the artist or creator doesn't get his or her fair due. I am sure the price was high due to both the amount of work required to create it, and also the added value of the instructional materials.
Part of this also is about the very very obvious and desperate need by many people for out of the box usable content. $40 for one character that is amazingly detailed and beautiful... might be too much for "too little".
I bet there are more people looking for more simple cheaper characters they could use right away rather than one mind blowing fantastic character with limited options.
Maybe it was marketed incorrectly.. I don't know. I don't know what other's expectations were. My expectations of a rigged AS character would be something that can be animated right away without any fiddling around or any modifications. A few more options would be helpful.
I don't mean to impune the absolutely amazing talent of Sang. It isn't his talent in question, it is the packaging of a product. Many times fantastic and classic movies go by unnoticed because they aren't marketed well or at all. They are labeled "failures" even though they are fantastic. They are "packaged" incorrectly.
It wasn't clear to me that the Rose Agent product was intended mainly for instructional purposes. I wrongly assumed it was intended for use in animations with AS.
I don't think Rose Agent is worth "$4" dollars... I honestly believe it is worth much more than that. To cut to that price is a bit much in my opinion.
I do however see the possibility for cheap simple rigged characters that might be close to that price range.
If I created a product for AS, I would want it to be usable right out of the box. I would want it to be possible for someone to buy it and start animating right away without even knowing anything about drawing in AS or assigning bones or point motion.
To scunge about bones... I'm one of those bone fanatics... I don't use any point motion at all... if it can be helped. To really create reusable and simple to animate characters, bones are the only way this can be done. The work involved to create a character capable of an infinite number of poses with out using bones would be too prohibitive.
-vern
I think that guy is a genius with AS. He is brilliant. He does things with AS that blow my mind. To be fair, I have not purchased the Rose Agent character. I should buy it now that is in a comfortable range for something I will never use for anything but to look at in amazement.
To me... that is the issue. Pricing of ANYTHING is very hard. Too high, and the expectations go up as well. Too low, and the artist or creator doesn't get his or her fair due. I am sure the price was high due to both the amount of work required to create it, and also the added value of the instructional materials.
Part of this also is about the very very obvious and desperate need by many people for out of the box usable content. $40 for one character that is amazingly detailed and beautiful... might be too much for "too little".
I bet there are more people looking for more simple cheaper characters they could use right away rather than one mind blowing fantastic character with limited options.
Maybe it was marketed incorrectly.. I don't know. I don't know what other's expectations were. My expectations of a rigged AS character would be something that can be animated right away without any fiddling around or any modifications. A few more options would be helpful.
I don't mean to impune the absolutely amazing talent of Sang. It isn't his talent in question, it is the packaging of a product. Many times fantastic and classic movies go by unnoticed because they aren't marketed well or at all. They are labeled "failures" even though they are fantastic. They are "packaged" incorrectly.
It wasn't clear to me that the Rose Agent product was intended mainly for instructional purposes. I wrongly assumed it was intended for use in animations with AS.
I don't think Rose Agent is worth "$4" dollars... I honestly believe it is worth much more than that. To cut to that price is a bit much in my opinion.
I do however see the possibility for cheap simple rigged characters that might be close to that price range.
If I created a product for AS, I would want it to be usable right out of the box. I would want it to be possible for someone to buy it and start animating right away without even knowing anything about drawing in AS or assigning bones or point motion.
To scunge about bones... I'm one of those bone fanatics... I don't use any point motion at all... if it can be helped. To really create reusable and simple to animate characters, bones are the only way this can be done. The work involved to create a character capable of an infinite number of poses with out using bones would be too prohibitive.
-vern
Well, I did see some of the free movies or SWFs that were posted here:
http://graphics.smithmicro.com/article/ ... 2267/1/793
But I count only 9, does somebody have a link where all 17 were available?
I watched those 9 and wanted to see all of them, hence I bought the package. And I don't regret it or think it was too high a price.
[Edit] Okay, after looking at the above link, I see that all 17 movies were included in those 9 parts. I seem to remember at the time when I first bought it that not all were available course maybe I am wrong.
Regardless, one thing about me is that I am a visual oriented person and I learn best if I can see something being done. I can read a manual or have somebody verbally try and tell me how to do something but I don't learn best that way. Being able to peer over Sang's shoulder so to speak, and watch him create Rose's face and head was well worth the money I paid. I watched Sang, and then would open his files on Rose and found it worth every penny.
I learned more about ASPs drawing tools from Sang in those videos then I did in all of my forum readings, readings of the manual and my attempts at learning the tools themselves. I come from a pre-press/graphic design background and so my mind was trained (brainwashed?) into thinking that vector drawing was done a certain way. As it is done in Illustrator, as it is done in Freehand, etc. Sang really was able to demonstrate the drawing tools in a very economical manner.
Additionally, I felt the lack of sound wasn't a detriment to Sang's videos. I so get tired of a person doing a tutorial and going on and on stating what tool they are selecting. If I am familiar enough with a program I should know the tools and commands, so I want somebody to just get busy and get on with the tutorial! I was able to follow what Sang was doing, what tools he chose and how he used them. All 17 videos were 4 minutes long or so, so that was over an hour of watching Sang as he created Rose's face/head.
I will say that the only thing wrong with Rose Agent is how it was marketed. Sang can't help that. Some of his other characters are boned but with an emphasis on being set up for one shot.
He has a pig that does a little dance and jumps. Could this same boned character be used to do a normal walk cycle? Probably not but I think Sang would just draw a new model for that animation. There was this other character where a little boy is being thown up into the air as if bouncing on a trampoline. The camera is placed as if from a worms eye view and you have foreshortening on the boy as he is bounced upward. That is one model for one shot. I see nothing wrong with working that way and it is my approach. Is this prohibitive? I don't know. I see me wasting much time trying to develop a few models to encompass everything that I want my character to do. Isn't it easier and more economical to do more models that are geared to what I want them to do in a specific shot?
Working like this it seems the bone rigging can be simpler as I don't have to worry about it being a jack of all trades, just a master of one specific function. Use bones for broad movements and setting initial poses but get get down and dirty with animating the points by hand. I suspect this is how GreyKid do their models and animations but that is just conjecture on my part.
http://graphics.smithmicro.com/article/ ... 2267/1/793
But I count only 9, does somebody have a link where all 17 were available?
I watched those 9 and wanted to see all of them, hence I bought the package. And I don't regret it or think it was too high a price.
[Edit] Okay, after looking at the above link, I see that all 17 movies were included in those 9 parts. I seem to remember at the time when I first bought it that not all were available course maybe I am wrong.
Regardless, one thing about me is that I am a visual oriented person and I learn best if I can see something being done. I can read a manual or have somebody verbally try and tell me how to do something but I don't learn best that way. Being able to peer over Sang's shoulder so to speak, and watch him create Rose's face and head was well worth the money I paid. I watched Sang, and then would open his files on Rose and found it worth every penny.
I learned more about ASPs drawing tools from Sang in those videos then I did in all of my forum readings, readings of the manual and my attempts at learning the tools themselves. I come from a pre-press/graphic design background and so my mind was trained (brainwashed?) into thinking that vector drawing was done a certain way. As it is done in Illustrator, as it is done in Freehand, etc. Sang really was able to demonstrate the drawing tools in a very economical manner.
Additionally, I felt the lack of sound wasn't a detriment to Sang's videos. I so get tired of a person doing a tutorial and going on and on stating what tool they are selecting. If I am familiar enough with a program I should know the tools and commands, so I want somebody to just get busy and get on with the tutorial! I was able to follow what Sang was doing, what tools he chose and how he used them. All 17 videos were 4 minutes long or so, so that was over an hour of watching Sang as he created Rose's face/head.
I will say that the only thing wrong with Rose Agent is how it was marketed. Sang can't help that. Some of his other characters are boned but with an emphasis on being set up for one shot.
He has a pig that does a little dance and jumps. Could this same boned character be used to do a normal walk cycle? Probably not but I think Sang would just draw a new model for that animation. There was this other character where a little boy is being thown up into the air as if bouncing on a trampoline. The camera is placed as if from a worms eye view and you have foreshortening on the boy as he is bounced upward. That is one model for one shot. I see nothing wrong with working that way and it is my approach. Is this prohibitive? I don't know. I see me wasting much time trying to develop a few models to encompass everything that I want my character to do. Isn't it easier and more economical to do more models that are geared to what I want them to do in a specific shot?
Working like this it seems the bone rigging can be simpler as I don't have to worry about it being a jack of all trades, just a master of one specific function. Use bones for broad movements and setting initial poses but get get down and dirty with animating the points by hand. I suspect this is how GreyKid do their models and animations but that is just conjecture on my part.
Hi Wena.
The character I mentioned is called Wienertoonz available on Content Paradise....it is a very simple sausage character (same as my gif) so don'e expect anything complicated. It is the pre-animated movements that come with him and tutorials that make the product easy to use. Unfortunatelt these movements are not compatible with any other AS characters. If you are still interested you can have a look at it here:
http://www.contentparadise.com/us/user/ ... duct_23751
Cheers
D.K
The character I mentioned is called Wienertoonz available on Content Paradise....it is a very simple sausage character (same as my gif) so don'e expect anything complicated. It is the pre-animated movements that come with him and tutorials that make the product easy to use. Unfortunatelt these movements are not compatible with any other AS characters. If you are still interested you can have a look at it here:
http://www.contentparadise.com/us/user/ ... duct_23751
Cheers
D.K
Charector Pack
Thank you DK for a prompt answer.
Your vendor declares.
"WienertoonzV1 for Anime Studio Pro is the fastest and easiest way to create 2D animations for the web, internet, Youtube you name it! A collection of pre-animated cycles featuring cartoon wiener characters that can be assembled into dynamic animations in seconds."
But its not for AS Pro, I am disapointed.
"Wena 2" is good I am working on HER the 45% TURN NOW.
Let us know where we can buy any of your work for AS pro? !!!!!!!!!!!
Wena
Your vendor declares.
"WienertoonzV1 for Anime Studio Pro is the fastest and easiest way to create 2D animations for the web, internet, Youtube you name it! A collection of pre-animated cycles featuring cartoon wiener characters that can be assembled into dynamic animations in seconds."
But its not for AS Pro, I am disapointed.
"Wena 2" is good I am working on HER the 45% TURN NOW.
Let us know where we can buy any of your work for AS pro? !!!!!!!!!!!
Wena
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synthsin75
- Posts: 10265
- Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:20 pm
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