NTSC 16:9---Why 960 x 540 and not 1920 x 1080?

General Moho topics.

Moderators: Víctor Paredes, Belgarath, slowtiger

Post Reply
User avatar
tonym
Posts: 328
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 4:23 pm
Location: Missouri

NTSC 16:9---Why 960 x 540 and not 1920 x 1080?

Post by tonym »

Under "Project Settings," if you select NTSC 16:9 aspect ratio, you get a Preset 960 x 540 work area. Why not 1920 x 1080? That makes more sense for HD work, doesn't it?

The 960 x 540 resolution has been causing me a headache lately.

I imported my 960 x 540 movie into Final Cut Pro 5, but FCP was clearly expecting 1920 x 1080, because my Anime Studio movie appeared like a small rectangular island in the preview screen, surrounded by a sea of black pixils on all sides.

So I looked and looked in the FCP manual, trying to find a way to tell FCP to expect 960 x 540 files, but I couldn't find any way to do it. Evidently I need to import 1920 x 1080 movies if I want to edit 16:9 in FCP 5. (Does this sound right?)

If 1920 x 1080 is far more popular than 960 x 540 for HD, why doesn't Anime Studio Pro use it as a preset? Or am I missing something about the usefulness of 960 x 540?

My goal is to burn my 16:9 cartoon on a DVD. I worked at 960 x 540 because I assumed 960 x 540 was a smart choice because it's in the ASP presets. But now I'm thinking, why on earth is it in the presets?

It looks like I need to re-export everything as 1920 x 1080 to edit it.

Bleh.
NetGenSuperstar
Posts: 38
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 11:30 pm
Location: BEHIND YOU!!!

Post by NetGenSuperstar »

NTSC 16:9 doesn't mean high definition. It means standard definition widescreen. If you had a standard camcorder, and set it to 16:9 mode, it would capture at 960x540.

HD is different. It's a separate standard, having nothing to do with NTSC or PAL, except that some HD video is interlaced.

You should render to 1920x1080 if you want high-def video, even though there is no preset for it yet. If you want to use the 960x540 video, you should set your FCP project to NTSC Anamorphic (that's what it's called in Final Cut Express HD, anyway).
User avatar
mkelley
Posts: 1647
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:29 pm
Location: Sunny Florida
Contact:

Post by mkelley »

Yeah, and just to elaborate you aren't going to burn your cartoon to a DVD at HD unless you burn it using a blu-ray burner -- IOW, you cannot put HD on a "regular" DVD. And, of course, you need a blu-ray player to play such a disc (it won't play on a standard DVD player).

You *can* put 16:9 widescreen on a normal DVD, of course. I know this is pretty obvious, but since you didn't understand HD versus widescreen I thought I'd mention this.

Blu-ray burners (along with the blanks) are pretty pricey right now -- this will change, of course, as more and more folks start switching (right now the estimation is that regular DVDs will cease to be sold by December '09).

Right now even most broadcast cartoons are not done in widescreen, let along HD. So that, for example, The Simpsons is broadcast at 4:3 480i even though nearly everything else on Fox is HD. This will change, of course, but it's yet one more reason why the widescreen preset makes sense. IOW, it's more likely that cartoons will go first to widescreen than they will be done in HD (you really aren't going to gain much detail in a cartoon, particularly with the traditional cell-shaded variety -- a line is a line is a line).

Our present weekly series is done in widescreen but not HD format.
User avatar
tonym
Posts: 328
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 4:23 pm
Location: Missouri

Post by tonym »

Thanks mkelley and NetGenSuperstar! Your posts were a BIG help. I was obviously drowning in a sea of confusion.

As it turns out, I don't want HD; I want widescreen, which, luckily, is the format I had been using in Anime Studio anyway. Yay!

Also, thanks NetGen Superstar for pointing me toward NTSC Anamorphic as the appropriate setting for my FCP project. That fixed the problem!
NetGenSuperstar
Posts: 38
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2008 11:30 pm
Location: BEHIND YOU!!!

Post by NetGenSuperstar »

Glad I could help. I was hoping my Final Cut knowledge hadn't evaporated completely.

mkelley, it actually is possible to burn HD-DVD compatible video to a standard DVD; I know there is Mac software that can, anyway. The only problem there is that Blu-ray won the format war (already!?), so it's not very useful anymore. Plus it only holds about an hour of video.

Also, it is true that there's little point in HD animation. A line can only be drawn so thin and sharp before you can't see it anyway. If I make animation, though, I would like to make sure there is enough detail in my drawing to warrant an HD conversion someday. On that note, with Anime Studio, it's easy to re-render to HD when and if necessary. For The Simpsons, the Korean animation studio would have to upgrade their equipment to support it, and HD doesn't seem to be catching on too quickly in the first place, in the US or in Korea.

EDIT: I've only just learned that you can also burn a Blu-ray file structure onto a standard DVD, and it will work on a Blu-ray player. Fancy that.
User avatar
slowtiger
Posts: 6256
Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:53 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany
Contact:

Post by slowtiger »

Also, it is true that there's little point in HD animation. A line can only be drawn so thin and sharp before you can't see it anyway. If I make animation, though, I would like to make sure there is enough detail in my drawing to warrant an HD conversion someday.
Don't get mislead by the clean lines and uniformly coloured appearance of most vector based artwork. If you work with textures and brushes, the difference between HD and ordinary TV resolution becomes obvious.

As to DVDs: over the last months I spoke to festival people a lot. Although nearly all festivals now accept DVDs as a medium for selection copies, only a few allow DVDs as well as a medium for screening. Take care to check the regulations of your festival of choice so you don't have to create a Beta SP tape in a hurry ... which is definitely not the best choice for digitally produced animation, but seems to be a still widely accepted format for screening.
User avatar
Rhoel
Posts: 844
Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 8:09 am
Location: Phnom Penh, Cambodia
Contact:

Post by Rhoel »

[quote="mkelley"]Right now even most broadcast cartoons are not done in widescreen, let along HD. So that, for example, The Simpsons is broadcast at 4:3 480i even though nearly everything else on Fox is HD. This will change, of course, but it's yet one more reason why the widescreen preset makes sense. /quote]

I have to dispute this quite strongly - there is a difference between what is broadcast and what is produced. The vast majority of commissioned work in the past decade has been in 16:9 (4:3 centre protected). In the past 2-3 years, many producers have moved to HD. Currently, new animation work is completed HD because of what is called future proofing - 5 years down the line, no-one is going to be broadcasting SD ... try sell a 16:9 then.

In Korea and Japan, all TV is HD and has been for years.

Quite frankly, when talking about TV production, I am stunned that people are still talking about 4:3. Its a dinosaur.


RE:DVD
DVD is great for distributing HD - it fully supports uncompressed files, as a transport system only. That is, if you have to send to a festival, DVD is great for shipping a HD short, for use in a compilation edit.

Using DVD as a playout source is a different argument.


Rhoel
If you happen to be going to Pattaya in Thailand for your hols, the Pattaya Beer Garden now screen HD movies live on flat-screen, from a computer. The results are very good. (Unusually for Thailand, the ex-broadcast owners have obtained a screening licence for their films).
User avatar
mkelley
Posts: 1647
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:29 pm
Location: Sunny Florida
Contact:

Post by mkelley »

Let me qualify that then: the vast majority of broadcast animation in the U.S. is done 4:3. This has been true for quite some time (has nothing to do with how it's produced versus broadcast, as even the released DVDs are 4:3 480).

And forgive me for my U.S. bias, but it is the only market I am familiar with (or really care about). HD is a long time being adopted here (and may take several decades more despite the best efforts of congress to force it on folks).
User avatar
heyvern
Posts: 7042
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 4:49 am

Post by heyvern »

The impression I get from watching "HD" on the HD channel, and "Non HD" on the syndicated cable channels... they just shoot one size and crop.

This is a big issue for me. I understand the concept of "rendering for the future". Let's face it... no one wants to go back and redo stuff.

It is quite ironic when you think about it though... HD caught on just when there is all this programming on cell phones and iPods... weird. So basically you need to produce everything REALLY REALLY HUGE and really really small... at the same time.

-vern
User avatar
mkelley
Posts: 1647
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:29 pm
Location: Sunny Florida
Contact:

Post by mkelley »

Speaking strictly for the US market (I will always try and qualify things for now) 4:3 480i material has a long future ahead of it. For one thing, Americans love nostalgia, and nothing sells better nowadays than old television shows (pretty obviously not shot in widescreen, let alone HD).

So for quite some time (think decades) there will be lots of folks who are just fine with 4:3 material. Just as obviously, planning for the future means thinking HD.

The nice thing about a product like AS is you can have it both ways -- as long as you lay out your material for widescreen you can continue to render normally and either crop or go to letterbox for standard delivery. Then when and if you need an HD version just go back in and rerender the same scenes.

For our series we're started in widescreen with this thought in mind. And please those of you in the U.S. TV market remember that when we are talking HD we are nearly always talking 720 not 1080. No current broadcasts are done (nor are any planned even in the forseeable future) at any higher res (simple economics).

This, BTW, is also a reason many people don't see an appreciable difference watching US HD broadcasts versus a DVD (there isn't much if any of a difference in quality). 1080 is a whole other ballgame.
Post Reply