I have a question about what theatrical output would look like.
Would it look like this?
- 2048x1080 24 fps (known as "2K")
- JPEG 2000 compression
- Compression rate of 4.71 bits/pixel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Cinema_Initiatives
And if you chose a very long aspect ratio, you could letterbox the actual production like hell into this format and thereby reduce the data burden throughout the production process?
EDIT:
Cinemascope 2.40
2048 / 2.40 = 853.3333333333333333333333333333333333333333333
round to a more even number such as 860
result would be a movie format of 2048 x 860
production might involve editing on ones? (12fps?) with final render on twos (24fps?)
theatrical output
Moderators: Víctor Paredes, Belgarath, slowtiger
try googling the Cinesite in Germany - they have the downloadable templates with safearea available on their site. It's 2 am and I have been up since too early.
The cinemascope is actually 2:35 but Cinesite lists it as 2.39:1 so at 2k the gate data they quote is 2048 * 858 sq.px. At 4k it is 4096 * 1714. (jpeg2000)
The 1:85 is a horizontal cut - 1998 * 1080 (2k185) and the 16:9 is 1920 * 1080 (HDTV). So it is edge safe, not top safe, the reverse of film apertures.
My notes have reference to MXF (SMPTE 384M aka Material Exchange Format) at 24Bit depth for 2k/4k: Audio is 16 channel. Not sure why Cinesite specified that but check.
ASP renders fine at 2K - tested it already.
Rhoel (logging out and heading for bed)
The cinemascope is actually 2:35 but Cinesite lists it as 2.39:1 so at 2k the gate data they quote is 2048 * 858 sq.px. At 4k it is 4096 * 1714. (jpeg2000)
The 1:85 is a horizontal cut - 1998 * 1080 (2k185) and the 16:9 is 1920 * 1080 (HDTV). So it is edge safe, not top safe, the reverse of film apertures.
My notes have reference to MXF (SMPTE 384M aka Material Exchange Format) at 24Bit depth for 2k/4k: Audio is 16 channel. Not sure why Cinesite specified that but check.
ASP renders fine at 2K - tested it already.
Rhoel (logging out and heading for bed)
@egendron: sorry, I don't know
@Rhoel: Thanks for the clarification.
I confirmed with a local digital cinema, Cinetopia, that Motion JPEG 2000 is the only codec they use for true "digitial cinema" and he also mentioned that a MXF container is strictly required.
Is it just me, or is this "shockingly early" in the game for digital cinema? Web searches for motion JPEG 2000 indicate that encoders are not widely available. I've seen some references to motion JPEG 2000 in connection with Quicktime, but I am still hazy on this.
On Windows, there is (a purely experimental?) codec from Morgan Multimedia. If you're serious, though, you can buy a codec from MainConcept for roughly $2400 (during their summer sale !) "It enables the user to create fully J2K compliant streams for Digital Cinema."
However, a promise of a compliant stream is not the same as a promise of a complete delivery solution (for instance, the MXF thing). The Wikipedia article on various MXF incompatibilities is distressing.
Rhoel, can you tell us what you do to create a truly compatible digital print?
Also... am I imagining things, or are these technical hurdles another case of gate-keeping by Big Media?
@Rhoel: Thanks for the clarification.
I confirmed with a local digital cinema, Cinetopia, that Motion JPEG 2000 is the only codec they use for true "digitial cinema" and he also mentioned that a MXF container is strictly required.
Is it just me, or is this "shockingly early" in the game for digital cinema? Web searches for motion JPEG 2000 indicate that encoders are not widely available. I've seen some references to motion JPEG 2000 in connection with Quicktime, but I am still hazy on this.
On Windows, there is (a purely experimental?) codec from Morgan Multimedia. If you're serious, though, you can buy a codec from MainConcept for roughly $2400 (during their summer sale !) "It enables the user to create fully J2K compliant streams for Digital Cinema."
However, a promise of a compliant stream is not the same as a promise of a complete delivery solution (for instance, the MXF thing). The Wikipedia article on various MXF incompatibilities is distressing.
Rhoel, can you tell us what you do to create a truly compatible digital print?
Also... am I imagining things, or are these technical hurdles another case of gate-keeping by Big Media?
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NetGenSuperstar
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$2400? Really? My default install of QuickTime Pro lets me create J2K videos, even by directly exporting from Anime Studio. I'm using OS X, but Apple's website says the Windows version includes the JPEG2000 codec, too.human wrote:If you're serious, though, you can buy a codec from MainConcept for roughly $2400 (during their summer sale !) "It enables the user to create fully J2K compliant streams for Digital Cinema."
I doubt it. Besides, the open-source community will always be one step ahead of lesser artists (i.e. Hollywoodhuman wrote:Also... am I imagining things, or are these technical hurdles another case of gate-keeping by Big Media?
)
I would never try to attempt to deliver a cinema-ready digital movie package just made in my apartment. Do I have a digital Beta SP recorder? Or a D-1 MAZ? No.
Instead I'd relay on one of the many post production houses who have the hardware and the experience. I'd deliver a digital master file like Quicktime with only lossless compression, or even just aPNG sequence. (And the sound file which is a completely different piece of cake - think of a theatrical mix instead of ordinary stereo, a Dolby license, and so on.)
It's not only the codec. Every kind of material could be encoded in whatever codec is needed. But think of the physical medium and its player. My experiences in digital cinemas over the last months were partly disappointing. Some stuff was projected in flawless HDTV quality, indistinguishable from 35mm film. Other stuff was shown in blurry TV resolution - but the creators told me they had deliverd a HD master! What had happened?
It looks like some of those pricey new beamers/digital projectors don't have all the software and interfaces needed to cope with any kind of player. They can only deal with certain machines and ignore all others. From those they don't accept the true HD signal and only display the "preview" signal, much like Windows Vista acts when it detects what it calls an "untrustworthy source", meaning a completely good signal but without some RIAA signature or other pissmarks of DRM.
I haven't researched much further since that but plan to do, because I definitely don't accept any more "technical hurdles" now that we can produce high quality content in our bedrooms.
Instead I'd relay on one of the many post production houses who have the hardware and the experience. I'd deliver a digital master file like Quicktime with only lossless compression, or even just aPNG sequence. (And the sound file which is a completely different piece of cake - think of a theatrical mix instead of ordinary stereo, a Dolby license, and so on.)
It's not only the codec. Every kind of material could be encoded in whatever codec is needed. But think of the physical medium and its player. My experiences in digital cinemas over the last months were partly disappointing. Some stuff was projected in flawless HDTV quality, indistinguishable from 35mm film. Other stuff was shown in blurry TV resolution - but the creators told me they had deliverd a HD master! What had happened?
It looks like some of those pricey new beamers/digital projectors don't have all the software and interfaces needed to cope with any kind of player. They can only deal with certain machines and ignore all others. From those they don't accept the true HD signal and only display the "preview" signal, much like Windows Vista acts when it detects what it calls an "untrustworthy source", meaning a completely good signal but without some RIAA signature or other pissmarks of DRM.
I haven't researched much further since that but plan to do, because I definitely don't accept any more "technical hurdles" now that we can produce high quality content in our bedrooms.
How annoying.slowtiger wrote:much like Windows Vista acts when it detects what it calls an "untrustworthy source", meaning a completely good signal but without some RIAA signature or other pissmarks of DRM.
It really makes me laugh. Copy protection and video encryption doesn't work for anyone except those of us who aren't trying to break it.
-vern
Of course I agree with this. But I had some concerns about:slowtiger wrote:Instead I'd rely on one of the many post production houses who have the hardware and the experience.
- locating a post-production house that encodes to this new format;
- how much it would cost; and even about
- whether a company that does encoding for major studios would even accept such a small client
But some research indicated that Dolby (yes, that Dolby) is one of the companies which encodes to digital cinema specifications.
So I gathered up the courage and called them for a quote.
They quoted me as if my money would be as green as anyone else's (after all, have you seen the pastel riot which is the modern American greenback?), and the ballpark price wasn't at all bad.
I expect to have more detailed information soon.
Here are the technical specs for submitting audio and video assets to Dolby for digital cinema encoding.
They offer a complete solution, even (optionally) the rental of hard drives for the delivery of the content to digital theaters.
Note that there are a few more little details at the delivery end I won't go into, and I am definitely not going to discuss prices here.
If you are interested in this, you should be able to obtain quotes from Dolby or some other service bureau.
I might however mention that Dolby will do the translation from RGB to XYZ color space for you, for a reasonable fee.
==========
Delivery Specs:
* 24 frames per second
* Uncompressed TIFF files
* The TIFF file shall contain only active pixels. No letterbox or other forms of inactive pixels shall be present in the file.
* Flat 1.85 = 1998x1080
* Scope 2.39 = 2048x858
* All pixels shall be contained within a single slice.
* Pixel components shall have 12 bits of depth and shall be stored in the slice using 16 bits per component (12 bits plus LSB pad of 4 zero bits).
* Metadata representing the frame position in sequence or frame count shall be provided for each frame (e.g. in the file name).
* The target color gamut for DCI-compliant projectors is DCI P3. Color correction shall be performed accordingly.
* The DCI X'Y'Z' transfer shall be applied to the color-corrected TIFF files.
* Audio: 24bit/48kHz PCM 5.1 (L,R C,Sub Ls,Rs)
They offer a complete solution, even (optionally) the rental of hard drives for the delivery of the content to digital theaters.
Note that there are a few more little details at the delivery end I won't go into, and I am definitely not going to discuss prices here.
If you are interested in this, you should be able to obtain quotes from Dolby or some other service bureau.
I might however mention that Dolby will do the translation from RGB to XYZ color space for you, for a reasonable fee.
==========
Delivery Specs:
* 24 frames per second
* Uncompressed TIFF files
* The TIFF file shall contain only active pixels. No letterbox or other forms of inactive pixels shall be present in the file.
* Flat 1.85 = 1998x1080
* Scope 2.39 = 2048x858
* All pixels shall be contained within a single slice.
* Pixel components shall have 12 bits of depth and shall be stored in the slice using 16 bits per component (12 bits plus LSB pad of 4 zero bits).
* Metadata representing the frame position in sequence or frame count shall be provided for each frame (e.g. in the file name).
* The target color gamut for DCI-compliant projectors is DCI P3. Color correction shall be performed accordingly.
* The DCI X'Y'Z' transfer shall be applied to the color-corrected TIFF files.
* Audio: 24bit/48kHz PCM 5.1 (L,R C,Sub Ls,Rs)