Why someone *wouldn't* want Toon Boom Digital Pro

[slowtiger]

I would dread using Anime Studio in a studio environment. Just not efficient enough for collaboration, file transfers, etc. I'd guess that anything beyond three animators, and AS would be a bottleneck.

It looks like that, and it will be, in the hand of a naïve user. But you can make up a lot for not having file version control, approval flags, and so on, just by careful planning before you start.

Generally speaking, any studio system software is tailored to the "dumb" user without much responsibility. In contrast, "small" software like AS requires a lot of thinking and responsibility from every team member. It helps when all of the team members had some experience in a classically run studio, and know how to use tools like X-sheets, modelsheets, layouts, and so on. Sometimes I have the feeling that younger animators don't ever look beside their monitors for information ...

[dm]

I wouldn't call it 'bashing'.

I guess I misunderstood this:

... it's fun to bash the competitors.

It looks like that, and it will be, in the hand of a naïve user. But you can make up a lot for not having file version control, approval flags, and so on, just by careful planning before you start.

A couple of years ago, I had to do a cutout style short film (about 10 minutes running). We started with Anime Studio (at your recommendation, no less). It became evident that a group workflow simply wouldn't work with AS. Mostly because of asset management, and the hassles with sticking all the elements together. It took more effort than it was worth. Not that it wasn't doable, but that five or six of us simply didn't have the time or energy to maintain it. We scrapped AS, and moved to Cinema4D. It went substantially faster, and easier. The additional cost (and learning curve) for the software was probably 'break even' after the first week or so. OK, so maybe we counted as "naive users". Our AS software jock conceded that the 'workarounds' weren't worth it. We did have the whole thing planned out in advance (boards, X-sheets, animatics, breakdowns, etc.).

The thing I'm doing right now is two of us, and AS works fairly well. But AS just isn't set up for a 'production' environment. I don't think Digital Pro would be appropriate for group use either. Harmony, etc. are probably worth the extra cost so that a pile of animators can all do their individual jobs, and have it work together in the end. I think it goes beyond dumb users (though that's an important feature). It's about a production workflow. If it takes a week to rig a character, then hopefully that's paid off in the flexibility of character use over several shows. If not, then it's just stupid. Regardless, it's set up so several people can be working on a scene at the same time. The value comes from cranking out product. I'm sure the cost is worth it in the end-just so there's a pipe spewing something functional out in the end.

-dm

[synthsin75]

I'd have to agree with Slowtiger. If the responsibilities and tasks are split up smartly, I see no problem with a team working a project using ASP.

[heyvern]

I wonder how Grey Kid productions works with AS in a production environment? They work with multiple people in a studio set up and it seems to work great for them. I can't imagine they don't have a tight organized work flow. They did a feature length animation with AS. How was that done?

I think it can be done.

DM, could you tell us what specific issues caused trouble with the work flow? Can yo give specific problems? I've found that a lot of times it just doesn't occur to most people how to set up folders with the files to work in a production environment. If you have specific issues let me know, I bet there is a fairly simple solution.

I am currently working on a fairly big project. There are only two of us but we needed a set up that would allow easy transfer of files. I do the animation and he renders.

The folder structure I came up with is perfect. It eliminates the need to send the same asset files back and forth. Just drop the AS file into the folder and all the files are linked and updated. Any type of asset management tool or system could easily be adapted to this. Also, each portion of the job is completely portable. It can be zipped or transfered to any computer anywhere and all links are maintained. We even had several different ways to do this and chose the one we liked the best.

I am going to get flamed for saying this I am sure... but... I think it's "laziness vs. money". If it's takes "too much effort" (define too much effort please) to come up with a system and you have the money... then buy something else that seems to have more options. I think once a system is created for Anime Studio it can work just as seamlessly as any other application. If you WANT to use AS you need to figure out how to do it. The end result isn't the "same" as some other program but that isn't the point.

My new script (almost ready for prime time) for importing/exporting bone animation will help with this even more. You could email animation updates or just store them as text in a database.

-vern

[dm]

This was a couple of years ago. I'm old, memory is fuzzy. We were 'doing it'. Obviously it can be done. I'm sure we could have done the whole thing in Photoshop, for all it matters. If six people can save a few hours a week on 'file management and discussion, and software workarounds', that adds up over a month or two. Production budget on that one was probably $500-$600/ hr. So, it adds up fast enough to make even an hour or two a week saved worth it. I don't know that it's laziness, as much as economics. Get 50 animators on a project, and every billed minute counts to someone. Doing that project in "3D" made it go a lot faster. Finished in budget, and on schedule.

Note that I am using ASP on what I'm doing right now. It's working well enough. I try to use the tools most appropriate for the job. I use other tools for other jobs. I don't care what they are, as long as the job gets done. I don't need to make Anime Studio be my 'solution'. Currently, we just drop all of our elements into folders on a server, and import as needed-discuss and change as needed too.

Have you worked on a project with AS with 10 or 20 animators? I don't doubt it could be done effectively, but I also don't doubt that it could be done more effectively some other way. I don't really care. I was just trying to point out that there are reasons for using a big studio package. Remember too, that Animo, Harmony, Harlequin, etc. come with a support package (which, on it's own costs more than buying Anime studio, several times over). Tech support, when you need it. Doesn't do to have production shut down-and you pay for that insurance and support. It's a machine that produces a product for a corporation. It has to go all day, every day. And that's what you pay for. It's sort of like comparing a Swiss Army Knife (Anime Studio, cheap, multifunctional) to a laser cutter (Toon Boom, etc.-expensive, does it's 'thing' well, but anything more is hard to manage).

-dm

[synthsin75]

Have you worked on a project with AS with 10 or 20 animators?

I think Greykid is at least that size, I may be wrong though.

I don't really understand why people can't let us enjoy our AS bias. This is the AS forum after all. Would you go to the Mac forum and complain about them prefering Mac to PC?

This topic was started comparing the method needed to simulate AS bones in TB. Is it unfair to judge TB on the merits of AS? Certainly, but I'll be the last to make excuses for that.


DM, you sound like a real jack-of-all-trades in animation, but don't expect everyone to share your noble and unbiased views on software. Most people have favorites, and these often exclude the competition.

[heyvern]

If six people can save a few hours a week on 'file management and discussion, and software workarounds', that adds up over a month or two. Production budget on that one was probably $500-$600/ hr. So, it adds up fast enough to make even an hour or two a week saved worth it.

That's my point. I don't think a properly setup production environment with AS would cost you anything. You set up the procedures and a system and it saves money and time regardless.

I still don't know precisely what problems you had that would have cost a month or two in lost production time. You say that was the case and I say tell me what the problem was and I could find a SIMPLE workaround that won't cost an extra hour or two. An extra hour? That's a lot of time.

The cost of those other packages would pay for an asset management tool many times over that can work with any product.

You say the best tool for the job but you insist that AS is NOT "good enough" for a production environment with 20 animators and I am ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN it is. It just takes the right organization to fit the tools. ToonBoom and others like it cost a fortune for a 20 seat license compared to AS. that can be the difference between MAKING an animation and NOT even starting.

If you give me a list of what you need in an AS work flow I bet I could come up with a solution that wouldn't waste time and would be easy to learn and use for all the animators.

----

p.s. That support package you pay for... you get FOR FREE right here. I bet there isn't a single issue that can't be resolved on this forum in a short time... and it's free. Did I mention it's free?

-vern

[DK]

I have outsourced some TVC work in the past to overseas studios who all use AS. Typically they can ouput 3-4 minutes of great quality animation per week....but the best bit is....they just send me the final AS scenes in one 2-3mb zip file for re-editing, tweaking etc....

Just my two cents worth.

Cheers
D.K

[DarthFurby]

I am somewhat guilty of bashing ToonBoom in this very forum, but I was uneasy and now I know why. A forum has value when it abounds with critical thinking and analysis, and many places succumb to rampant fanboyism/girlism. I've been a cheerleader myself at times, but this only pollutes our ability to think objectively. If we openly and accurately discuss the issues, people will come to this forum because we will be a source of integrity. We will have gained their trust and raised the bar for what a great forum REALLY is, instead of lowering ourselves with "Nyah Nyah! We're cool, you suck!" Anime Studio is neither "Anime" nor "Studio". In my mind, it is character animation tool for all genres that works best in CONJUNCTION with a STUDIO package like Toonboom or Flash. That someone like Greykid pictures is able to work around the limitations of Anime Studio is a testament to their project management skills, and the fact that they are a small studio, but it is in spite of, not because of, the limitations of Anime Studio. For Anime Studio Pro to earn the title "Studio" and "Pro", it needs those project management features along with many other abilites that both ToonBoom and Flash already have. In that sense, Anime Studio is not even in the game. However, it does have the power to change the face of animation more so than any other player on the field, because it is THE BEST 2d character animation tool on the market, and does things nobody else can do, like a towering olympic champion on a field of disabled midgets. It is also extremely easy to use, even for children. Nobody else comes close. But it is a very specific tool that should be used in the pipeline, not in place of it. DM's issues are valid. Nothing would please me more if we openly, accurately, and obectively discussed the strengths and weakness between Anime Studio and The Competition, and our audience went with the competition. Because it would mean they have made an educated and informed decision. This would also help us decide which features take priority.

Do I think Toonboom is a good animation tool? For frame by frame animation, yes. It is a studio level solution, a jack of all trades but master of none solution, designed to handle all phases of production, not just animation. Do I think it's good software? Not really. But does Anime Studio have it's weaknesses? You bet. The length of our feature request section makes that abundantly clear. Trying to silence people who have issues with the software does no good. Find out why, and find a means to improve Anime Studio based on that feedback, because if a competitor comes out with a better solution, I will not hesitate to make the transition. Make no mistake, I love Anime Studio(although I hate the name, thanks e-frontier) but let's trade in our Pom Poms and put on our thinking caps. We're better than that.

[slowtiger]

One point lots of people tend to forget in this discussion is time, as in "meeting the deadline" versus "production time" versus "preparation time". I've noticed a tendency that people (clients as well as animators) believe that production time can be reduced endlessly just by using computers. That's not true.

In a team of one or three animators, most things can be made up on the fly. It's a very enjoyable way to do animation and works good for short projects.

In a team of 10 animators it will not work that way. A team that size will need one person responsible for supervision, file versions, model sheets, whatever. Ideally in a team like that you will have one person responsible for all rigging (I worked in a setup like that and it ran smoothly). That means this person does all rigging full time. It's not a job any of the animators could do in just one hour every day.

And here's the time factor: the rigging must be finished before animation starts. This is old news to anyone who worked in a studio, but often comes as a surprise for animators used to small teams.

Integrated studio software doesn't allow to start animation before all rigging is done (I'm simplifying here), so careful planning of Human Ressources might come up with something like "character design week 2, rigging week 3 - 6, animation starts week 7" and so son, you get the idea. Bigger studios are so used to this breaking up of a workflow that they don't even mention it.

Small animation teams, or animators who start a bigger project for the first time, don't necessarily know about this. A common mistake is a calculation like "I can do x seconds of animation a week ... and do the rigging in the evening" or forget about that at all. It takes quite a lot of experience to not run into traps like this.

[The400th]

This whole discussion is completely moot anyway, because mkelley misread the Toonboom site:

It can be very time consuming to animate a story and you don’t necessarily want to wait two or three months for it to be completed.
With Digital Pro you can have it ready in a week or two!

They're talking about the STORY, the whole film, not the rigging of one character.

It's interesting that most of the ToonBoom defenders haven't actually used Harmony on a production, btw. I'd like to see a comparison between ASPro and Harmony from people who've actually used both. I think the results would send ripples around the industry.

[slowtiger]

I think the results would send ripples around the industry.

I don't think so. Studios who made an investment into Harmony, Animo, Toonz, or any other production system, think in years, not single projects. Anyone in animation who talks about projects being completed in a week or two is very likely not a professional.

Whereas the singe artist might be involved only a month or three, the whole project goes from one to several years from story to broadcast. Running a studio also means to use every software license every day, if possible. It can happen that an artist who does animation today will do ink&paint tomorrow. In an environment like that this is possible because the whole process is broken down to simple tasks, so simple that you don't need a fully trained animator for most of them.

[synthsin75]

I'd like to see a comparison between ASPro and Harmony from people who've actually used both.

Can you really compare these two? The difference in prices alone is hugh. You have to keep everything in perspective. ASP at $150 versus TBS at $400. Once again, I think that the comparision to TBDP is valid from the viewpoint of the AS bone system.

All this talk about the production pipeline is comparing apples and oranges. Even if I were given a free copy of these higher end software, I'd probably never use them. ASP is simple enough not to get in the way of the creativity. That's why I don't do 3D. Scrolling through seemingly endless lists of modifying attributes is not fun for me.

ASP fills a specific need and does so extremely well. No other software fills that need. And it just so happens to be what I need.

For a one man studio, ASP is the best hands down. And that is the extent of my interest.

[dm]

I still don't know precisely what problems you had that would have cost a month or two in lost production time. You say that was the case and I say tell me what the problem was and I could find a SIMPLE workaround that won't cost an extra hour or two. An extra hour? That's a lot of time.

I see that you aren't actually reading or comprehending what was written. We were only in production for about two months, and that extra hour or two for a simple workaround is what we were dealing with, and found unacceptable. There simply wasn't enough time and money to spend to force AS into being our 'solution'.

p.s. That support package you pay for... you get FOR FREE right here. I bet there isn't a single issue that can't be resolved on this forum in a short time... and it's free. Did I mention it's free?

What's a short time? Guaranteed response in an hour? I hope you get to a point where you're spending a few thousand dollars paying someone to wait for an answer on this forum.

I just got a PM from someone. There's a communication problem around here. I mentioned $500/hr for production costs. That's for people, per hour, not the whole budget. Total cost for that mentioned job was about $250,000 (which isn't very much). I have a feeling many here have no concept of the realities of "production". You shouldn't fight it so hard, you might learn something, and make more money in the process.

I can see that I'm being foolish in not using Anime Studio for everything. I'm throwing away my pencils now. Can someone help me get up to speed in how to use Anime Studio as my web browser?

[mkelley]

This whole discussion is completely moot anyway, because mkelley misread the Toonboom site:

Actually, your response is completely moot because you misread my initial post <bg>.

I didn't base my critique of TB DP on that sentence -- I based it on the tutorial itself. It was (is?) amazingly overly complicated. I stand by this -- it's insanely complicated to do this rigging process (I know, I've tried myself) for what is essentially something that should be intuitive and easy (like it is in AS).

And I think DM has it wrong as well -- I wasn't trying to compare the overall scope of TB DP compared to AS, and I even tried backpedaling a bit when it comes to animation (saying that TB is really all about cell animation). I just said (and will continue to say, and defend the point) that the cutout rigging is insanely complicated. It's overly complicated. It's needlessly complicated. Do you get it? (I'd use words of one syllables for some of you but it's hard for me to target that low).

Making rigging complicated has nothing at all to do with project management, unless your idea of PM is to drive your employee slaves crazy (some sort of demented Gary Larsonesque Hell where the boss laughs like mad as his workers twist in the wind). I rig characters and reuse them quite easily, and while I'm a one-man shop nowadays (I didn't always work that way so I'm very familiar with PM in setups of 30 or more folks) I don't see any reason why resources in AS can't be managed properly with only a very little effort.

But that's not my point -- let me make it one more time (since many have missed it): if that tutorial is how you must work for cutout animation in TB (and it actually SIMPLIFIES the process, because the character is a snake and thus is easier than most of the rigs I've seen: anyone who really wants an eye-opener in this regard should download the TB PDF on cutout animation to see how really and truly inane their workflow is to rig a usable character) then it doesn't hold a candle to working in AS. I can rig 30 characters in the time it would take to even *consider* rigging one in TB.

However, I think DF has it right when he says one of the strengths of this forum is considered discussion on important issues, so please all do me a favor and, if you do want to compare the merits of the production management of AS v. something else start a new thread. I believe my original intent has been well met and nothing added here will improve that.