Why someone *wouldn't* want Toon Boom Digital Pro
Moderators: Víctor Paredes, Belgarath, slowtiger
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synthsin75
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DarthFurby
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Before we close the doors, I have one last thing to say, I PROMISE(well maybe):
We are not a forum, we are a community, and in a very real sense, a family, where nobody is nobody, and everybody is somebody. Our views are as unique as who we are as individuals, it is our greatest and ultimate contribution. They are all different because we are all different, so we should disagree, we MUST disagree, but still be as one, learning from one another. The glue that saves us and keeps us together is mutual respect. Without that, we would rip ourselves apart and war with each other in a sea of bitterness and rage.
Slowtiger, synthsin75, dm, mkelley, DK, The400th, blacksunproject, heyvern, scunge and everyone else who has expressed their thoughts:
Our views are us, they have been shaped by our unique experiences and so we are therefore hot and passionate. But let respect for each other be KING, so that we can be allowed to be ourselves. Different, but the same.
That everyone in this thread has expressed a different view means there is hope for us. That is our path to growth, it saves us from stagnation, but it can easily lead to ruin as a nation would to warring states, or as a world would to furious nations.
Our puzzle then, is this:
How to disagree, and still be friends?
"If you give respect, you get it back, big time."
We are not a forum, we are a community, and in a very real sense, a family, where nobody is nobody, and everybody is somebody. Our views are as unique as who we are as individuals, it is our greatest and ultimate contribution. They are all different because we are all different, so we should disagree, we MUST disagree, but still be as one, learning from one another. The glue that saves us and keeps us together is mutual respect. Without that, we would rip ourselves apart and war with each other in a sea of bitterness and rage.
Slowtiger, synthsin75, dm, mkelley, DK, The400th, blacksunproject, heyvern, scunge and everyone else who has expressed their thoughts:
Our views are us, they have been shaped by our unique experiences and so we are therefore hot and passionate. But let respect for each other be KING, so that we can be allowed to be ourselves. Different, but the same.
That everyone in this thread has expressed a different view means there is hope for us. That is our path to growth, it saves us from stagnation, but it can easily lead to ruin as a nation would to warring states, or as a world would to furious nations.
Our puzzle then, is this:
How to disagree, and still be friends?
"If you give respect, you get it back, big time."
That's why in general... I think it's best to leave software comparisons to other forums or locations. That's a guaranteed ingredient for "heated" discussions.
I apologize if I come across strongly but this IS the Anime Studio forum. There's no need to advertise any other competing product here of all places. Those doing research can find out on their own and make their own decision.
I just felt that a blanket statement that AS can't be used a certain way when it obviously IS being used that way successfully isn't an accurate depiction for a potential purchaser looking for comparisons.
By posting about a competitive product (good or bad) there will be a discussion pro and con of both programs.
-vern
I apologize if I come across strongly but this IS the Anime Studio forum. There's no need to advertise any other competing product here of all places. Those doing research can find out on their own and make their own decision.
I just felt that a blanket statement that AS can't be used a certain way when it obviously IS being used that way successfully isn't an accurate depiction for a potential purchaser looking for comparisons.
By posting about a competitive product (good or bad) there will be a discussion pro and con of both programs.
-vern
Well, forgive me for misunderstanding you - it must have been this other sentence that you wrote that confused me:I didn't base my critique of TB DP on that sentence
I think I out-mooted you.but even if someone thinks TB and all its variants are the cats pajamas must surely wonder at the line in that tutorial about how it will take a week or two to do that snake
Anyway, bygones.
To the others that think ASPro and Harmony can't be compared, I think it's the results that count, and if you compare Greykid's output with shows like 6Teen, Grossology, etc., you can see that Harmony isn't a "secret sauce" that makes shows better.
And you do know that TBDP is the same as Harmony for animation purposes, don't you? ToonBoom actually use that as a selling point, saying that you can work from home using TBDP and take the scenes back into work where they're using Harmony?
So to summarize, have some faith in ASPro, but don't bash other software without a good reason - it makes our community look bad.
Once again, you missed my point. My point was the rigging was overly complicated. It was my first message -- did you not read that? (it's considered good form to read a thread starting at the beginning)
I simply wondered later on (once again -- later on meaning further and aside from the main point. I'm just not sure how much to explain to you as perhaps English isn't your first language) why the TB tutorial kept touting that it would only take "weeks" to do this. Still, has nothing to do with the main (and this means primary, or principle, or first -- I'm really trying to be helpful to you here) point. The rigging is insanely complicated.
But.. I'm sorry if this was all seen as "bashing". There are things about AS I don't like and I'm glad to note them as well -- is that "bashing"? Perhaps. I do know this -- there is no way in hell I'd ever rig a character using TB, no matter what variant. AS is so much better in this regard it's ridiculous.
I simply wondered later on (once again -- later on meaning further and aside from the main point. I'm just not sure how much to explain to you as perhaps English isn't your first language) why the TB tutorial kept touting that it would only take "weeks" to do this. Still, has nothing to do with the main (and this means primary, or principle, or first -- I'm really trying to be helpful to you here) point. The rigging is insanely complicated.
But.. I'm sorry if this was all seen as "bashing". There are things about AS I don't like and I'm glad to note them as well -- is that "bashing"? Perhaps. I do know this -- there is no way in hell I'd ever rig a character using TB, no matter what variant. AS is so much better in this regard it's ridiculous.
Foolishly, I reenter the fray...mkelley wrote:Once again, you missed my point. My point was the rigging was overly complicated. It was my first message -- did you not read that? (it's considered good form to read a thread starting at the beginning)
I simply wondered later on (once again -- later on meaning further and aside from the main point. I'm just not sure how much to explain to you as perhaps English isn't your first language) why the TB tutorial kept touting that it would only take "weeks" to do this. Still, has nothing to do with the main (and this means primary, or principle, or first -- I'm really trying to be helpful to you here) point. The rigging is insanely complicated.
But.. I'm sorry if this was all seen as "bashing". There are things about AS I don't like and I'm glad to note them as well -- is that "bashing"? Perhaps. I do know this -- there is no way in hell I'd ever rig a character using TB, no matter what variant. AS is so much better in this regard it's ridiculous.
If you look at my first post on this thread, you might notice that the comment was that I didn't find the rigging complicated in TB. It went pretty fast and easy. You click, draw bones, and apply constraints. Done.
-d
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synthsin75
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DM, perhaps you could find us an example tutorial or something which better illustrates your point that doing bones in TB is that easy. Draw bones? I didn't see a 'bone' one in the tutorial Mike (mkelley) posted the link to.You click, draw bones, and apply constraints. Done.
If we're going to continue this thread, in this same vein, you might as well backup what you are saying about TB. By the way, how much does TBDP sell for? I think it'd be only fair to post that price here.
Prove us wrong about TB bones. How long would it take you to set up a character for a walk cycle using TB?
I'm all for learning new things. (Like how much it costs to do 2D IK with some other software)
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synthsin75
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"Creating a special look."Your snake will end up looking a bit like a pearl necklace. Don’t be reluctant to add colour and create funny shapes. Since you are already creating a special look, why not go all the way!
That tutorial makes it look as if you can only "bind layers" to bones, to use the AS terms. If that's true, then you could never have shaped that bend by bone movement. Thus their example 'special' snake. If by special they mean retarded, then I totally agree.
Once again, I'd love to be proven wrong.
I've been reading the ToonBoom stuff to figure out what this "IK" system really is. I think it is only for cut out style animation. that is how it is always refered to. There is no "bone influence" it's either all or nothing.
Here's the scoop from my limited knowledge:
TB's IK system is nearly identical to bone locking in AS. It has "pegs" or pins that can "lock" a portion of the IK heirarchy during animation. From what I understand you can only use IK under specific situations with a specific type of rigging, the "Hierarchy" rig, which I believe is what is used for the snake example. That rig is described as being the most complicated. They have what they call an "open" rig with "no connections". Sounds like a bone rig in AS where none of the bones are parented to any bone and the only way to animate is to rotate each bone? I don't know for sure.
I have not used TB's "bone" system (they don't call it bones or use that term at all) so can't make a comparison to AS, However one of the best features of AS is the scripting. I have several scripts that I've been working on I mean to finish up that will give AS some amazing hierarchy capabilities it doesn't have nor does TB have at this point. Another plus for AS scripting... if the tool doesn't exist you make it yourself.
That is my point all along. AS may not have specific features out of the box but with the right skills you can add nearly any feature you want.
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For example, yesterday I'm working on a big tedious project. It requires drawing a bunch of boxes on a single mask, duping the mask up to 20 times in a switch, then going layer by layer deleting each box until the last mask has no boxes. Like a "slide build".
I know there might be a script somewhere here to select layers but I just wasn't sure if it existed and didn't feel like looking for it so I added my own code to the translate points tool in about 20 minutes. It uses the arrow keys to select layers up and down in a switch layer. It only works with the select and translate points tool but that is all I needed at the time.
I select points, delete, down arrow/next layer, select points, delete, down arrow. This saved tremendous effort for me. It increased my efficiency tremendously.
That is why AS kicks arse. Limitless options for new features independent of the developer. You don't have to wait for the programmer to add new features. There is almost NO limit to how AS can be expanded with scripting. Now that I know and understand the file format so well I was thinking of doing some "external" file management similar to what has already been done by one of the users to manage and open scenes in an external application.
This will only get better when they add in more script access. I am sure Mike and SM are listening. They understand that scripting is a powerful FREE feature in BOTH versions of AS.
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Only ToonBoom Harmony has a scripting SDK. They don't list a price. You have to contact the sales dept. so it probably is way up there in price. I have no idea how their scripting works or what parts of the tools are exposed in the SDK.
p.s. In addition to the tool modification I made I also had to create more than 20 files from templates, each exactly the same but with different image links. I did this quickly and easily using a text editor. I realize that it would be possible to create some kind of external visual editor with an interface that could streamline this in the future. that is another bonus to AS, the simple easy to edit ascii text file format.
-vern
Here's the scoop from my limited knowledge:
TB's IK system is nearly identical to bone locking in AS. It has "pegs" or pins that can "lock" a portion of the IK heirarchy during animation. From what I understand you can only use IK under specific situations with a specific type of rigging, the "Hierarchy" rig, which I believe is what is used for the snake example. That rig is described as being the most complicated. They have what they call an "open" rig with "no connections". Sounds like a bone rig in AS where none of the bones are parented to any bone and the only way to animate is to rotate each bone? I don't know for sure.
I have not used TB's "bone" system (they don't call it bones or use that term at all) so can't make a comparison to AS, However one of the best features of AS is the scripting. I have several scripts that I've been working on I mean to finish up that will give AS some amazing hierarchy capabilities it doesn't have nor does TB have at this point. Another plus for AS scripting... if the tool doesn't exist you make it yourself.
That is my point all along. AS may not have specific features out of the box but with the right skills you can add nearly any feature you want.
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For example, yesterday I'm working on a big tedious project. It requires drawing a bunch of boxes on a single mask, duping the mask up to 20 times in a switch, then going layer by layer deleting each box until the last mask has no boxes. Like a "slide build".
I know there might be a script somewhere here to select layers but I just wasn't sure if it existed and didn't feel like looking for it so I added my own code to the translate points tool in about 20 minutes. It uses the arrow keys to select layers up and down in a switch layer. It only works with the select and translate points tool but that is all I needed at the time.
I select points, delete, down arrow/next layer, select points, delete, down arrow. This saved tremendous effort for me. It increased my efficiency tremendously.
That is why AS kicks arse. Limitless options for new features independent of the developer. You don't have to wait for the programmer to add new features. There is almost NO limit to how AS can be expanded with scripting. Now that I know and understand the file format so well I was thinking of doing some "external" file management similar to what has already been done by one of the users to manage and open scenes in an external application.
This will only get better when they add in more script access. I am sure Mike and SM are listening. They understand that scripting is a powerful FREE feature in BOTH versions of AS.
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Only ToonBoom Harmony has a scripting SDK. They don't list a price. You have to contact the sales dept. so it probably is way up there in price. I have no idea how their scripting works or what parts of the tools are exposed in the SDK.
p.s. In addition to the tool modification I made I also had to create more than 20 files from templates, each exactly the same but with different image links. I did this quickly and easily using a text editor. I realize that it would be possible to create some kind of external visual editor with an interface that could streamline this in the future. that is another bonus to AS, the simple easy to edit ascii text file format.
-vern
product or tool?
There seems to be a basic principal behind the differences between tbs and asp.
ASP puts animation and animators first, TBS puts asset management and production management first.
I have tried TBS but it is a very boggy process, I use TBS storyboard (reluctantly) often. I say reluctantly because as it turns out, the asset management myth seems to be exctly that, a myth. It does however print the greatest storyboard templates, but draw in another package and import the images as the drawing tools are poor and if the file crashes, there's no version save or save as, so kiss the whole project goodbye.
It seems as slo was saying about their promotional blurb being vague, that the trick is to convince the management team of TBS superiority get the sale and let the client deal with the issue or even better, be convinced of the support deal.
ASP on the other hand makes no attempt to court PM,s. I don't think it's asset management system is bad, but I think ASP has done well not to become all about big business and concentrates on it's strengths- animation.
ASP, with a few little touchups plus a networked asset management system could easily be better than TBS for all tasks, maybe, Mike is pacing himself and adding features in an order that keeps the app growing in the right direction before it rises to the top of the crop.
I tend to think ASP is still just edging out of it's teething years and should become the grandaddy of all vector based 2d apps if it grows correctly and doesn't get worked over from some dreaded management gurus and treated as a product , not a tool.
RRRRAARRG!!!
ASP puts animation and animators first, TBS puts asset management and production management first.
I have tried TBS but it is a very boggy process, I use TBS storyboard (reluctantly) often. I say reluctantly because as it turns out, the asset management myth seems to be exctly that, a myth. It does however print the greatest storyboard templates, but draw in another package and import the images as the drawing tools are poor and if the file crashes, there's no version save or save as, so kiss the whole project goodbye.
It seems as slo was saying about their promotional blurb being vague, that the trick is to convince the management team of TBS superiority get the sale and let the client deal with the issue or even better, be convinced of the support deal.
ASP on the other hand makes no attempt to court PM,s. I don't think it's asset management system is bad, but I think ASP has done well not to become all about big business and concentrates on it's strengths- animation.
ASP, with a few little touchups plus a networked asset management system could easily be better than TBS for all tasks, maybe, Mike is pacing himself and adding features in an order that keeps the app growing in the right direction before it rises to the top of the crop.
I tend to think ASP is still just edging out of it's teething years and should become the grandaddy of all vector based 2d apps if it grows correctly and doesn't get worked over from some dreaded management gurus and treated as a product , not a tool.
RRRRAARRG!!!
People will use what they have at hands. Rarely we are in the comfortable situation that someone spends a big heap of money and orders us "Go on, build a studio, buy all the software you want!".
I remember working at "Asterix in America" when computers got introduced into the studio workflow for the first time (that was about 1992 or 3). The storyboard drawings were done traditionally on paper, but it was my job to get them into sequence, add the script, and maintain the actuality of the version. The first months I was scanning the drawings in with a handheld scanner, like a small vacuum cleaner! (Luckily I worked on a Mac.)
A storyboard program? Nope. We used RagTime, a nice office software, and hired someone to build a template for us. It didn't do more than to keep up synchronicity between several frames, shift the text fields when a pic was added, and so on. The program was pretty slow when documents got bigger than 30 pages. But it worked, and it was used for several films.
I remember working at "Asterix in America" when computers got introduced into the studio workflow for the first time (that was about 1992 or 3). The storyboard drawings were done traditionally on paper, but it was my job to get them into sequence, add the script, and maintain the actuality of the version. The first months I was scanning the drawings in with a handheld scanner, like a small vacuum cleaner! (Luckily I worked on a Mac.)
A storyboard program? Nope. We used RagTime, a nice office software, and hired someone to build a template for us. It didn't do more than to keep up synchronicity between several frames, shift the text fields when a pic was added, and so on. The program was pretty slow when documents got bigger than 30 pages. But it worked, and it was used for several films.
Okay, mkelley, if you're going to be patronizing and hypocritical, we'd better stop here.mkelley wrote:... did you not read that? (it's considered good form to read a thread starting at the beginning)... I'm just not sure how much to explain to you as perhaps English isn't your first language ... this means primary, or principle, or first -- I'm really trying to be helpful to you here
I apologize if my post pointing out your mistake made you look foolish, it was not my intent, I was just trying to play fair - after all, we wouldn't like it if someone on the ToonBoom forum posted false accusations against AS.
If you really want to make your point, why not make a tutorial to do the same thing in ASPro? Then everyone can see how much easier it is.
(Synthsin75, this is better than asking dm to do another TB tutorial, IMO. The retail price for TBDP is $3000, btw)
Oh, and chucky, there is an alternative to TB Storyboard, from Toonz. It's called Story Planner. Give it a try, it might be better for you. http://www.toonz.com
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synthsin75
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There are already tutorials that illustrate how easy it is to use bones in AS. The debate is whether TBDP can keep up. So far I've seen nothing that would make me think it can.(Synthsin75, this is better than asking dm to do another TB tutorial, IMO. The retail price for TBDP is $3000, btw)
$3000!!! If I spent that kind of money, I'd feel the huge desire to defend that purchace as well. For $150 ASP can't be touched.
Very good points Chucky!
See -- you're really an ass. You say "we'd better stop here" and, of course, you don't. That's a pretty low trick, and not one that anyone with an ounce of brains wouldn't see through. But, of course, we'd measure your brain in much smaller units.The400th wrote:[
Okay, mkelley, if you're going to be patronizing and hypocritical, we'd better stop here.
I apologize if my post pointing out your mistake made you look foolish
If you really want to make your point, why not make a tutorial to do the same thing in ASPro? Then everyone can see how much easier it is.
As witnessed by the obviously idiotic "why not make a tutorial" it's clear that either you have no understanding of AS, or are purposely trying to continually bait this thread -- and I can only guess at your hidden agenda.
In either case, I have no intention of responding to you personally in this or any other thread.
Some people are getting a little 'heated' I can understand it though as people feel passionate about the tools that work for them and there's nothing wrong with that - as long as everyone treats each other with respect.
Below is part of a post I did a while back on this forum that I thought was worth repeating here
I can understand it though as people feel passionate about the tools that work for them and there's nothing wrong with that - as long as everyone treats each other with respect.Below is part of a post I did a while back on this forum that I thought was worth repeating here
The frustrating thing is that I'm convinced AS could be the tool of choice for professionals too if it was only marketed correctly. Just before the studio I worked for was taken over and subsequently closed down we were testing three 2D animation software products. The studio had a character they wanted to create in 2D. Two colleagues and I set about getting the character ready for animation in AS. We had a fully rigged and tested character in a single afternoon. Admittedly we all had a little experience with AS but not a great deal at that point. Another couple of animators were working with the other two software packages and after a week hadn't managed to get this character in any form suitable to be animated.
ToonBoom was one of the aforementioned packages and the rep who arrived with the software was very confident he could recreate and rig the character during the day. He was well aware of Anime Studio (Moho) as he insisted on calling it :0) ToonBoom (atleast the version we were testing) did have a bone system but we all found it very difficult to use. It also relied on 'pins' being 'inserted' into various limbs while animating to stop the characters rig from flying all over the place! Needless to say, the rep never managed to get the character animated either. Obviously ToonBoom is capable of fantastic results in the right hands but it certainly wouldn't be my tool of choice based on my experience with it.
In a meeting with ToonBoom via telephone (we are in the UK) to communicate our evaluation of the software any form of criticism was met with the ToonBoom woman practically screaming down the phone in response. I have to say here that I wasn't in the meeting but several people that were all reported the same and suggested that if they had have been considering going for ToonBoom that meeting would have been enough to put them completely off!