Why someone *wouldn't* want Toon Boom Digital Pro

[The400th]

See -- you're really an ass. You say "we'd better stop here" and, of course, you don't. That's a pretty low trick, and not one that anyone with an ounce of brains wouldn't see through. But, of course, we'd measure your brain in much smaller units.

As witnessed by the obviously idiotic "why not make a tutorial" it's clear that either you have no understanding of AS, or are purposely trying to continually bait this thread -- and I can only guess at your hidden agenda.

Wow... just... wow...

All I can say is that my apology was sincere, and that the tutorial suggestion was serious.

But I would love to hear what you think my "hidden agenda" is. Maybe you think I'm a ToonBoom employee? Or that I'm William Shatner getting revenge for the "Shatner in the sky with diamonds" animation you did (which was great, btw)?

[synthsin75]

Thanks AmigaMan, I enjoyed reading that again.

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The400th, you misread me there. I never asked for anyone to make a tutorial. I just assumed that if it were that easy in TB, one would already exist somewhere.

DM, perhaps you could find us an example tutorial or something which better illustrates your point that doing bones in TB is that easy.

I would suggest rereading this entire thread, because you seem to have gotten in the habit of misunderstanding what is being said. I'm not trying to be inflammatory, it's just that when people feel they are being intentionally misunderstood it gets hard to continue in a reasonable tone.

I apologize if my post pointing out your mistake made you look foolish, it was not my intent

It is clear to me that this apology isn't sincere. Why bother to apologize at all if you're going to insist on insulting within the apology? If this truely wasn't your intent, then I'd strongly suggest improving those reading comprehension and written communication skills.




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Oh yeah, here are a ton of AS bone tutorials on YouTube.http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... tudio+bone

[The400th]

The400th, you misread me there. I never asked for anyone to make a tutorial.

You're right, I meant to write "produce" but somehow that got turned into "make" on its way from my brain to my fingers. Sorry about that. My point was that the burden of proof shouldn't be placed on dm, as the tutorial this thread is about already exists. Really, the burden should be on the AS community to prove that our system is better.

It is clear to me that this apology isn't sincere. Why bother to apologize at all if you're going to insist on insulting within the apology? If this truely wasn't your intent, then I'd strongly suggest improving those reading comprehension and written communication skills.

I disagree, if I had written "I apologize that my post pointing out your mistake made you look foolish", then that would have been an implied insult. I used the word "if", which is different. It's a subtle difference, maybe too subtle.

I would suggest rereading this entire thread, because you seem to have gotten in the habit of misunderstanding what is being said. I'm not trying to be inflammatory, it's just that when people feel they are being intentionally misunderstood it gets hard to continue in a reasonable tone.

Yes, this is good advice for all of us.

I don't want this thread to degenerate any further, so I promise not even to read any replies, so that I am not compelled to write back.

Now, back to your scheduled bigging up of AS and dissing of Toonboom.

[synthsin75]

Oh yeah, here are a ton of AS bone tutorials on YouTube.http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... tudio+bone

In case it was missed, here again is the proof of easy AS IK. What we have been missing is proof of the assertion of easy TB IK. That TB tutorial only proves TB IK to be very involved and convoluted.

I don't think we would have had so much trouble with this thread if:

1) The topic hadn't been diverted to the PM issue. (Though I think that's still debatable since I found elsewhere that GreyKid uses ASP with 15-20 people.)

2) And any of the TB defenders could illustrate that TB IK could be done easier than that tutorial Mike(mkelley) posted.

I don't doubt that TB is one of the best cell animation programs. But it would be wonderful if they could figure out how to implement an IK system that is competitive with the ease of AS. Many people use several tools to accomplish a project.

With AS in your toolbox, who would use the TB IK??

Seriously, does TB IK have any redeeming features beyond that of AS? If so, I'd love to hear about them.

[synthsin75]

I know I should let this thread die, but I saw an advertisement for TBS cutout animation and just had to take a look.

Here's what I found.
http://www.toonboom.com/products/toonBo ... orkout.php

No wonder no one could provide any links to tutorials. Toon Boom charges for them. What kind of community is that?! Here, we provide free tutorials and help. You'd think a company, or its loyal users, would be interested in luring in new converts.

I, for one, would happily take a second, unbiased look at TBS if only there were resources to take a look at. I don't have the time to just muddle around with a demo if there is no instruction for these features.

[mkelley]

Here's a link to the TB Cutout animation guide that I've mentioned:

http://www.toonboom.com/pdf/product/dig ... _Guide.pdf

If you go to the "Rigging" section you can read all about adding the pegs, setting the pivots, rigging joint patches and glue joints, and creating the peg functions.

*Some* of this has counterparts in the bone process of AS. But I think anyone (even TB apologists) will see how very insanely complicated the process is compared to doing the same thing in AS.

There are no particular advantages in the TB rigging that I can discern, but it might take someone with a degree in animation to really know. At least I can't see anything you can't do easily (and much, much faster) with AS bones but it's certainly possible I'm missing something. Almost anything could be hidden under that forest of workflow.

I know this -- TB offers some animation processes that AS does not. In particular I think the ease in/out cycles are both easier to manipulate as well as understand. And, as has been written by myself (and others) a few times, clearly TB is cell orientated and has many things in that regard that AS can't do (or do as easily). But if cutout animation is your game, I truly think only a fool would put up with what is needed to be done using TB.

[synthsin75]

To be fair, I found what appears to be an excellent cutout tutorial on the TB forum. It is for TB Studio, so this is probably as simple as TB gets.

http://www.tallgrassradio.com/toonboom/ ... art-1.html

This seems to validate my thinking that TB only does a sort of layer manipulation. You actually have to find each layer in order to animate it in this style. You don't even have the option to do as AS does and animate from one 'bone' layer.

Basically 'pegs' are only a layer's origin, in AS terms.

I still see finding a use for TBS's frame-by-frame capabilities, but I still agree that its IK is tedious at best. It would definitely take much more time to rig (and more importantly, animate) in this style with TBS.

[dm]

Toon Boom Studio doesn't have bones or IK. Digital Pro and Harmony do. Otherwise, you're messing with their 'peg' system to move things about. AS is definitely superior to TBS in that respect. That's why I bought AS in the first place-essentially as an "Add On" for Toon Boom Studio to get Kinematics.

[synthsin75]

You're right. TBS doesn't offer IK, but it does offer FK (forward kinematics). Just like an AS parent/child layer structure, layer manipulations of a parent also effect its child layers.

Sorry, I can't seriously entertain the notion of comparing ASP to TBDP or Harmony based solely on the price difference. It just over balances the scale, in my opinion. Perhaps if money were of no concern, I could judge these based solely on features. In that case TBDP or Harmony may just prevail in terms of flexibility and quantity of features.

But ASP is still the most time effective animation software I've seen. And with the consideration of price, that just blow everything else out of the water.

Just opining here.

p.s. I'll avoid commenting on the 'Add On' statement.

[scunge]

Some interesting things have been said since I last posted. One thing that I have to comment on is tutorials.

I am probably in the minority but I feel Toon Boom has the edge hands down. When I bought TBS I spent the first two days printing up the manuals, tutorial files, tutorials from JK of TallGrassRadio Studio and others. I fired up the old laserprinter and when everything was printed I had over 1,000 pages.

When I downloaded the ToonBoom Digital Pro PLE it came with 6 PDFs and 4 hours of videos. The PDFs I haven't printed out yet but they total 2,211 pages.

I bought some of the TBS tutorials and again was happy with them. The scene files, the PDFs were all very well done. I also paid for an online resource for one month and was able to go through a course for ToonBoom 3.5 as well as 6 other programs. You do get what you pay for.

I am sorry but the vast majority of ASP tutorials on YouTube or elsewhere are either too small/blurry or just too damn basic. Then there is the issue of whether I can even view them at all. I still can't view Dr. Nick's tutorial that he did a while back. He used some codec that I am unable to find/acquire for the Mac.

When I got Anime Studio Pro I found no PDFs, a help HTML file that you view with a web browser and it looks very very dated. The examples don't look like they have changed since the time I dabbled with a demo of Moho years ago. It would be a fine idea I think for SmithMicro or Mike to seek out the best ASPers out there and have them create some first class tutorials to refresh/enhance the manual/tutorials. I did buy the AS book that came out this past year and was really underwhelmed with it.

In regards to other comments... Vern, TBDP does have a scripting language and they use Qt so you wouldn't be left out if, for some reason in another alternate universe, you picked up TBDP. I know next to nothing about programming but it looks like javascript from glancing at the one PDF. They have some 90 pages dedicated to it in that one manual.

If money were no object synthsin I think you would find TBDP does justify the price and has the features that do tip the scales. I love GreyKid's stuff as much as anybody but I have read where they often use Flash to do backgrounds and composite in Combustion or Digital Fusion. Those are not cheap programs.

With TBDP you have a nodal compositer right in the program itself. ASP still needs After Effects, Combustion or another program to get that final polish.

The one thing that I can't help feeling about GreyKid is how their animation is just atypical of most everyone else on this forum. Everyone is always quick to point to GreyKid when someone slams ASP. Yet, GreyKid IMO, has distilled the program to its barest essence...

...point animation.

In reading through the various posts GreyKid Pictures has said that they use simple bone rigs and don't often use Switch layers. I have read where they say that they use point animation for lip synching and facial expressions. I have read where they don't use any effects but choose to do the shading and lighting effects in post in Combustion. Backgrounds were said to be done in Flash and constructed into 3D environments in post with Combustion. FX such as particles or whatnot is done with Particle Illusion and others in post.

So, what do they use ASP for? Character Animation. And I don't think they spend any time doing just 2 or 3 rigs to cover any contingency. I think that is a fallacy. Many IMO are chasing a holy grail of bringing a 3D rig to a 2D environment with hopes that it can do turns, etc. I just don't see the folks at GreyKid bothering with all of that.

To me it looks like they could easily produce 8, 12, 15 models of one character in a single project. It looks like simple bone rigs with talented animators using point animation to produce the magic. And that is atypical of what everyone else does it seems. I hope they do come out with a book because it would be a revelation I believe in how so many of us are making this program so needlessly complex.

[slowtiger]

It looks like simple bone rigs with talented animators using point animation to produce the magic. And that is atypical of what everyone else does it seems. I hope they do come out with a book because it would be a revelation I believe in how so many of us are making this program so needlessly complex.

Hear, hear! Definitely my line of thinking. Use every program to do the things this program can do faster and better than others, but don't force it to do everything. All attempts to incorporate 3D rigs or scripted actions are not my cup of tea. If I ever wanted 3D, I would use 3D.

That said, scunge, there's still a weak point in your argumentation since even you compare a 3000$ software developed by a team to a 200$ software developed by one single man. Of course the FX and compositing abilities of ASP are a mere glimpse of what's possible in Cumbustion and the like - but it was never meant to compete with those. Instead, ASP is like a kind of "beginner's package" into animation and FX, and by clever design it turned out to be superior to other 2D vector programs in the field of character animation.

As for the manual - you're right, and you're not right at the same time. It's true, the current version of the "manual" sucks. I know that I didn't learn ASP just from the manual but from asking here in the forum. On the other hand, look how small a manual this program needs to be useful! Being able to do with a 50 pages manual is a big compliment for the usability of its GUI and design. Nevertheless, it's high time to do a new manual for ASP, and I know I would change a lot, judging from the amount of always the same beginner's questions here in the forum.

[chucky]

All very good points scunge.
I agree on the issue of simplicity and I think switch layers serve a purpose, especially for that limited animation look - a la Ren & Stimpy, certainly not everywhere .
The one thing I will say BRING ON THE AS POSE MACHINE YAHAAAA!!
Yeah you know what I'm talking about .. Genete, Selgin and many others have been tinkering with this little beauty for a little while and could revolutionise (as has been stated before) 2d animation altogether.
I think TBS might be too rooted in tradition to even contemplate better ways of doing anything ( pegs? FFS).
This may look complex and for a feature film or an ad it would not likely have a purpose. but.... if one wanted to make a TV or web series..... it smells pretty good.
I wonder if TBS community can augment as successfully, quickly or with such great spirit.
I think this spirit can be greatly attributed to the real enjoyment of using AS and a genuine respect for the its genius which contrasts greatly from my own experiences with TB products, support and community.
I wish it wasn't quite so, I remember such enthusiasm I had for TB which turned begrudgingly to disappointment with a twist of sourness.
My first brush with AS however involved much scepticism, followed by a day of complete bemusement and confusion which morphed gloriously to a feeling almost like victory when I realised what I could do with it almost painlessly too.
There are definitely a few aspects to AS that I would like to see improve but I can say that about any software I have ever used, AS just needs less improvements than others, purely for it's simple and undeniable logic.
I guess we're just kinda' fussy round here.
Oh yeah the manual is a bit of worry, agreed, but it will get you started....
I wish I had worked out earlier what the red dots on the timeline were

[synthsin75]

Some good points about tutorials scunge.

If money were no object synthsin I think you would find TBDP does justify the price and has the features that do tip the scales. I love GreyKid's stuff as much as anybody but I have read where they often use Flash to do backgrounds and composite in Combustion or Digital Fusion. Those are not cheap programs.

I'm thinking that most of this debate is being spurred on by the fact that people have different animation needs. I don't, as yet, do commercial work. So ASP and a couple of open source programs are all I need. I have doubts that I would be able or interested in fully utilizing a dizzying array of features. That kind of lightheadedness is what turned me off of 3D apps.

And personally, if I spent that kind of money on TBDP, I'd expect it to cover absolutely all of my animation needs. Until they implement something as easy as AS bones, that's not going to happen. But I do have TBS in my toolbox. But even at twice the price of ASP, it rarely gets used.

I feel I should point out that ASP is geared toward a one man studio. Even TBS doesn't have the kind of timesaving features necessary for a single person to be productive enough to keep up with a regular series.



Of people who use both ASP and, at least, TBS, I'd love to know how much they use each. I only use TBS for necessary frame-by-frame work. About five percent max.

[bioroid]

This is an interesting discussion. I actually was trying out both Toon Boom Studio 4.5 and Anime Studio Pro 5.6 last week to decide which one to go with. I gave each application about an hour and a half and went through a few tutorials. Initially I was leaning towards TBS because of the UI features like the graph editor (I love being able to type in values directly for fine tuning) but I knew I would miss out on features like particles. I did only get through one tutorial in TBS and a bunch in ASP given the same amount of time.

Later that day I was showing my wife some test animations I did with the demos and then started explaining some of the different features. As I went back and forth between the apps, she pointed out just from her observation that ASP's IK system was way better because it gave me results much quicker. And after thinking about it, she was right. I was overlooking ASP's strengths because of the non-standard interface.

To make a long story short, we decided to go with Anime Studio Pro because it just made more sense. It got results faster, was cheaper and had great features that I will definitely be using (particles, scripting) in the future. The lack of IK in TBS pretty much kills it.

On a side note, I programmed my own IK system last year for a 2D animation engine and it didn't take that long. I just don't think that paying $2500 for IK in TBDP is really worth it.

[synthsin75]

Thanks for sharing the newbie/comparison shopping experience, Bioroid. And welcome to the forum. It's always nice to get new programmers who may be interested in AS scripting.