AS feature discussion - AS more than "Cut out" sty

GCharb · Post by **GCharb** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:10 am

I know I know, said my last post was the last one but I could not resist, so here I go again!

Hello mkelly

Yeah, toonboom software can be quite blotted, studio is not so bad, Animate on the other hand I like alot, but AS is in a class of it's own.

synth, if you read my last post, you will learn that all those softwares have point motion, all of them, and you know what, the Toonboom software, allows point motion from the camera view, on top of any layer.

Paperless means you do not need paper, AS is a paperless animation software, they put alot of emphasis on that in tooboom products.

What you just described is what I proposed for AS, you animate with bones, but you can, on top of it all, tweak point in the camera view.

You sound like you just read a 700 pages pages and spent a lot of time on those software, every one of which are tons more complex then AS is.

Besides, the whole point of all that siliness is wheter AS is cutout or not, my last post was to show that the 2D animation industry reffers to the type of animation AS does as cutout style, and it does.

Because AS does some things diffrentlly then others does not mean that the basic technology it simulates is not cutout.

Cutout animation in any form, any point in time, reffers to the animation of characters using diffrent parts using some sort of rig. Wheter it is ancient asian shadow puppeting usint paper cutouts on wooden frames to the most advanced computer generated cutout style animation they all come from the same background.

Gilles

synthsin75 · Post by **synthsin75** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:38 am

Paperless means you do not need paper, AS is a paperless animation software, they put alot of emphasis on that in tooboom products.

True enough, but the pdf for Digital Pro did make the distinction. And if you agree that Toon Boom is a reliable source, so should you.

What you just described is what I proposed for AS, you animate with bones, but you can, on top of it all, tweak point in the camera view.

This already exists in AS, so obviously you've missed some rather large details in you assessment of AS.

From the Toon Boom site:

Toon Boom Studio offers true animation features designed to facilitate the creation of any styles of animation, including traditional frame-by-frame animation, keyframe animation, cut-out, photo animation and live-action cartoon.

Do all of these styles make Toon Boom a 'cutout' animation program? If this variety of styles makes it more than just a cutout app, then so is AS. TB can do FBF better than AS, mostly because that is the root of its development. In all of these other styles, AS is tops.

Once again, show me an industry source that refers to point motion modified, bone rigged animation as cutout. Please.

heyvern · Post by **heyvern** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:38 am

Now, if this is not the 2d animation industry, what is?

As defined by... the... software developers... in their "biased" marketing materials...

<sigh>

I want a non biased "industry standard" that "defines" a specific group of programs that ONLY can do cut out. You are using MARKETING from a company SELLING SOFTWARE as your source for the INDUSTRY STANDARD.

An industry standard comes from the industry not the software developers. Photoshop is an "industry standard" in image editing. It's been around forever. But you can get the EXACT SAME RESULTS using OTHER PROGRAMS. Many argue "they aren't as GOOD as Photoshop" but NO ONE says they don't produce the same results. They don't have the same features etc etc. But no one says gimp is only good for "red eye removal" on digital Christmas photos.

Just because more people use ToonBoom doesn't make AS any LESS. It just hasn't had as much time or money to be marketed that way. It also may lack some features but THOSE things don't define it as "cut out".

What the argument is... yes Anime Studio, along with Flash, Toonboom, After Effects... etc etc... all of those programs I found in a list of "cut out" applications.

BUT... READ CAREFULLY.... BUT none of those "lists" implied that "cut out" was a limitation or a "standard" feature of those programs. NOT ONE indicated that any of those programs that PRODUCE cut out animation is considered ONLY a cut out application with "extra" things.

-vern

synthsin75 · Post by **synthsin75** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:38 am

Paperless means you do not need paper, AS is a paperless animation software, they put alot of emphasis on that in tooboom products.

True enough, but the pdf for Digital Pro did make the distinction. And if you agree that Toon Boom is a reliable source, so should you.

What you just described is what I proposed for AS, you animate with bones, but you can, on top of it all, tweak point in the camera view.

This already exists in AS, so obviously you've missed some rather large details in you assessment of AS.

From the Toon Boom site:

Toon Boom Studio offers true animation features designed to facilitate the creation of any styles of animation, including traditional frame-by-frame animation, keyframe animation, cut-out, photo animation and live-action cartoon.

Do all of these styles make Toon Boom a 'cutout' animation program? If this variety of styles makes it more than just a cutout app, then so is AS. TB can do FBF better than AS, mostly because that is the root of its development. In all of these other styles, AS is tops.

Once again, show me an industry source that refers to point motion modified, bone rigged animation as cutout. Please.

GCharb · Post by **GCharb** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:07 am

Once again, show me an industry source that refers to point motion modified, bone rigged animation as cutout. Please.

I sent you a pm about this, will discuss it here as well.

Synth, you totally miss the point here, every software I mentionned uses a slightly diffrent approach to this type of animation, all of them, AS has bones, TB has pegs, Toonz has it's own set of tool, so does Thetab or Celaction.

Cutout animation is refered to as using a character, build from diffrent parts, rigged in some fashion, wether a peg, a wood frame or bones in a computer animation software, it is all the same, the basics are the same.

All the softwares I mentionned uses those same basic principles, they all have point motion, layers and the such and all of them reffer that type of setup/rigging/animation style as cutout, why would AS be any diffrent in that respect?

Gilles

synthsin75 · Post by **synthsin75** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:41 am

Once again you totally avoid answering any direct questions me or Vern ask you. You dance around prettily, but we don't need a dance.

So I'll try to read between the lines here.

Regardless of what animation styles the software is capable of, if it is 2D software that constructs characters with separate pieces, it is all cutout software.

Toon Boom Digital Pro, Flash, AS. All cutout tools. So pretty much any 2D computer animation app that does anything other that just simple FBF is cutout.

Very black and white depiction there.

GCharb · Post by **GCharb** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:03 am

Hello Vern

Sorry to see you sigh, but I did try to stop this, but the two of you wont let go!

I am not showing you biased information from a vendor that wants to brainwash us into buying their software, I am posting tutorials, manuals from many leaders in the 2D animation industry.

All of these vendors uses the term cutout style animation for their products, users uses them as well.

An industry standard comes from the industry not the software developers.

I agree to that, but the fact that most players in the industry uses those softwares, does not make those tools the standard in that industry. What makes Photoshop the standard in photo editing, isnt it the fact the the printing and photo editing industry choosed it to be the standard just like the 2D industry choosed those softwares as their standards?

When an entire industry uses the same technical terms, usually those terms become the standard, like keyframes, spreadsheet, timeline or cutout style animation.

But you can get the EXACT SAME RESULTS using OTHER PROGRAMS

Now I have to disagre, PS IS DA KING!

Heheh, seriouslly though, true you can make pretty much everything made in PS in other software, all a matter of taste.

Just because more people use ToonBoom doesn't make AS any LESS

Never said AS was anything less then any other software, AS is by far the best bang for the buck compared to any heavylifter as far as 2d animation software goes, just like A:M cant be beat for the buck for 3D, but to say thas AS has a better toolset or more robust toolset then those heavylifter is just plain silly, if it was, no one would use those expensive software, besides, do you think only Mike listens to his user base for devellopment?

All those devellopers listen to their user base for development, so yes, those are the tools for the 2d industry by the 2D industry.

But it is not the point of this discussion.

This is about a post I made about industry standards, the industry defines animation with characters build from dirrent parts and animated with some sort or rigs as cutout style animation, in so referring to those old HB animation and very ancient type of animation, as simple as that.

Was AS build to animate characters from diffent parts in a very reusable fashion using a hierarchy or was build for the occasional frame to frame animation synth reffered to in his pm, do most users do cutout animations with AS or do they use complicated bone setup or tedious point animation in switch layers?

My bet goes to the first assumption, AS is a cutout style animation software. Now show me how different AS is from any other cutout animation software on the market to justify such a dicussion.

Gilles

GCharb · Post by **GCharb** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:19 am

Hello synth

Very black and white depiction there.

Actually you are the one painting everything in B&W here, there are very few cutout only software out there, stickman is one of them. Toonboom and the such are hybrids, which offers tools for both worlds, so no, the fact that those software can make cutout animation style does not make them cutout only, but hybrids, just like a car that uses both gas and electicity is an hybrid.

AS on the other hand, has no tools dedicated to FBF, users who do such animation techniques uses the switch layers for such a task, but the switch layers are build to, well, switch layers, not FBF animation, FBF needs onionskinning to be truly useable, AS switch layers have no such feature, therefore making FBF a rather tedious task. Now, that does not mean FBF cannot be done in AS, but the fact that it can does not make it a FBF animation software.

All the software mentioned have switch layers but they are not used for FBF animation, no need, since most of these softwares have FBF animation build in.

Now, what are those questions you say I keep avoiding, I must have missed them in all that chatter

Gilles

synthsin75 · Post by **synthsin75** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 3:53 am

So cutout is defined as anything other than FBF??????

GCharb · Post by **GCharb** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:04 am

So cutout is defined as anything other than FBF??????

LOL, not even close.

FBF could be vector animated by hands, like you would do in a switch layer, hand drawn animation definatelly is FBF, so is stopmotion.
I do not think FBF is a style per say, like hand drawn, cutout, stop motion etc. I would say FBF is any type of animation that is animated on every keyframes, which could apply to any type really, hell, cutout can be animated on every keyframe, making it FBF animation I supose. Just a thought!

Gilles

Rudiger · Post by **Rudiger** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:38 am

GCharb, I think I know another way to put this that may convince you. The problem with the term "cutout" is that it doesn't cover point animation, which is built into the core of Anime Studio every bit as much as bone animation. It is not a trick, work-around or hack; it is a core feature. For example, I could I draw a seedling, and then stretch the points and change the color of the shapes to make it smoothly grow into a tree. This type of animation just doesn't follow the cutout principle, no matter how liberal you are with its meaning. Anime Studio also lets you use point animation simultaneously with bone animation to get animation that is indistinguishable from very high quality frame-by-frame animation, which is exactly the technique that GreyKid use. That is why they were able to mix the Anime Studio style animation with the hand-drawn animation seamlessly in La Reine Soleil.

So if you still want to use the term cutout to describe Anime Studio, you really have to say cutout and point animation to give the full story. However, that still won't appease folks like Vern as it is doesn't cover bone warping, although that's really an indirect method of point animation.

GCharb · Post by **GCharb** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:05 am

Hello rudiger

Here is a link to my first animation in AS few weeks ago!

Uses bones, constraints, several masks and tons of point motion.

monster.mov

Gilles

Rudiger · Post by **Rudiger** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:17 am

Wow, that's really cool. You could add even more point motion to make his arm an leg muscles flex, his fists clench, and his head turn slightly from side to side. This would make it look more like frame by frame animation. The way I see it, bone animation is like an auto-tweened form of cutout animation and point animation is like an auto-tweened form of frame by frame animation. The fact that you can use both together so easily is one of Anime Studio's great strengths. I think it's also why we are so keen to point out that Anime Studio does more than just cutout animation.

synthsin75 · Post by **synthsin75** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:38 am

The way I see it, bone animation is like an auto-tweened form of cutout animation and point animation is like an auto-tweened form of frame by frame animation. The fact that you can use both together so easily is one of Anime Studio's great strengths. I think it's also why we are so keen to point out that Anime Studio does more than just cutout animation.

Very well said, Rudiger. In all my babbling, I couldn't have put it better.

heyvern · Post by **heyvern** » Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:40 am

GCharb,

You keep "modifying" your description of how you defined AS.

You first stated emphatically it was not capable of doing full length features because of it's "cut out" only leanings. You the further stated without any wiggle room that AS is first and foremost only a cut out animation tool with a few extra things... but still just a cut out tool.

Now, you are hedging. You say all the programs have similar features. AS is just like the others but has a different "method". But because it has no direct method of drawing frame by frame this is the reason it is cut out...

but then you continue to hedge. Now maybe it can do a form of frame by frame but it's not "like the others".

If you want to meet in the middle, admit that some of us here have a point for our confusion and outrage other than just being "fan boys" than just say so.

If you truly wanted to end this endless debate you would have conceded that maybe your depiction of AS was inaccurate at least. You can't look at our arguments and the descriptions and tutorials of other leading applications own "cut out" features and not see they are all on the same level. Varying degrees of so called "professional workflow" features but in the end they can produce the same kinds of final results.

Trying to back track and change what was said by you previously only compounds the confusion over this absurd assumption about Anime Studio's position as a "cut out only" tool.

The reason I get so frustrated is that I HATE CUTOUT. I hate doing it. It's so tedious and limited. I don't like doing "cut out" with flakey joints and limited motion. I don't like it and don't understand how I could have been doing THAT all this time without knowing it.

I could do "cut out" flat animation with Animation Master all this time. It's great for that kind of thing and already has bones. You can load in images and assign them to bones.

-vern