Question for Greykid

[DK]

Hi Greykid.

Hope you don't mind sharing some of your tips with us
I would really like to know a bit more about how you approach your point only animation process.

Do you start by having all your character features broken down into seperate layers under a main group layer? Body, mouth, eyes etc?

Could you possibly share an AS screenshot of a typical character breakdown with us?

Many thanks
D.K

[Freakish Kid]

Hi DK,

We've changed our approach to how we use AS somewhat over the years, we used to build just a single character and animate the points. Nowadays we actually storyboard in flash, take the poses from the board and clean those up to create keyframes. Then we'll animate between the keys to create the sequence.

It takes longer in prep but the animation is much more defined and quicker. We've also started using switch layers more. Creating dozens of different facial expressions, arms legs etc and flipping between them to create the performance.

But the important thing to remember is that we now prep everything in the digital board phase. It just saves on model building and animation time.

Not too sure about posting a screen shot of the model layout, there are still a few things that we do to achieve what we do that I'd like to keep to ourselves. I'll take a look at some of the latest models and maybe post something if its not too revealing!

GK

[DK]

Thanks GK

This is really interesting to hear you combo AS with Flash these days.

Do your artists use digital tablets when sketching out characters or is the main part of your character design still done on paper?

Cheers
D.K

[Freakish Kid]

All animation is still done within AS, so is the model build. We only produce the storyboard in Flash, now and again we'll use Flash for a little bit of animation but its usually background stuff.

Design is done on tablets and on paper, but we're leaning more towards digital sketching now.

GK

[slice11217]

OK, so back to Greykid...

I'm curious about something: with all the benefits of bones, and considering everything that the users here have been able to do with them, why is it that you forego bones in your production? I'm just wondering..

Also, I have a production question for you: if, hypothetically you had a contract to produce a 30 second spot for video and all the writing and storyboarding/animatics were finished and approved, the characters were designed but not built in ASP (in other words, all the pre-production), what kind of timeframe would you be looking at to get the project completed and about how many people would you be using?

...and one last thing: when are we finally going to be treated to your site redesign? I'm itching to see some new Greykid stuff! -Can I get a quicktime copy of Rugbymen so that I can study it frame-by-frame? I like to do that.

Thanks,
S

[Freakish Kid]

OK, so back to Greykid...

I'm curious about something: with all the benefits of bones, and considering everything that the users here have been able to do with them, why is it that you forego bones in your production? I'm just wondering..

Also, I have a production question for you: if, hypothetically you had a contract to produce a 30 second spot for video and all the writing and storyboarding/animatics were finished and approved, the characters were designed but not built in ASP (in other words, all the pre-production), what kind of timeframe would you be looking at to get the project completed and about how many people would you be using?

...and one last thing: when are we finally going to be treated to your site redesign? I'm itching to see some new Greykid stuff! -Can I get a quicktime copy of Rugbymen so that I can study it frame-by-frame? I like to do that.

Thanks,
S

We use bones, it would be insane not to use such an ingenious tool! We do the foundation motion with bones then 'clean' it up with point animation.

If you had characters not built in AS then you'd need time to rebuild in AS. Depending on the style of animation needed would depend on the timeframe but I'd say 2 weeks is enough time for animation. Are you doing comp? if so then I'd add a couple of extra days for that and a few more for edit, sound and final output.

for the model build I would add in another week. You'd need to overlap the model build with the animation in the schedule but 2 weeks for entire model build should be enough.

So your production schedule would look like this

2 weeks for model build.
2 weeks for animation (first week would start 1 week in from model build)
2 days for composition
3 days for edit, sound and final output.

Don't forget that you need to add approval time into your schedule. Giving your client a 48 hour turnaround time is usually enough. They would have approved design already so no need to have any for the model build but you'd definitely need some for animation, comp and final film. So adding another 5 days in for approvals is also needed.

You can speed this timeframe up by having more people on board. The above is done with 1 modeler, 1 animator. 1 comp artist and a director.

The new site should be done in a few of weeks.

GK

[Rhoel]

Hi guys - I split the irrelevant Tools for Movies into a new thread - this is a great topic and it was in danger of being hijacked.

Hope the moderation hasn't stomped on anyones toes.

Rhoel

[DK]

Thank you Rhoel.

Cheers
D.K

[slice11217]

If you had characters not built in AS then you'd need time to rebuild in AS. Depending on the style of animation needed would depend on the timeframe but I'd say 2 weeks is enough time for animation. Are you doing comp? if so then I'd add a couple of extra days for that and a few more for edit, sound and final output.

for the model build I would add in another week. You'd need to overlap the model build with the animation in the schedule but 2 weeks for entire model build should be enough.

So your production schedule would look like this

2 weeks for model build.
2 weeks for animation (first week would start 1 week in from model build)
2 days for composition
3 days for edit, sound and final output.

//<snip!>//

You can speed this timeframe up by having more people on board. The above is done with 1 modeler, 1 animator. 1 comp artist and a director.

The new site should be done in a few of weeks.

GK

Hey, thanks for getting back to me about this. I should've given a bit more details about some of the context before I asked the question, yet what you answered with was quite enlightening. I don't have any specific project in mind, but I wanted to provide a basis of comparison for convincing my colleages to switch from a Flash-based production workflow to something much more diverse.

I'm thinking that the hypothetical 30 second project would have 2 to 3 characters and no animated props. All designs would have been approved, but would need to be created and modelled in ASP.

-By "comp" do you mean compositing? If so then yes, the compositing would be done in-house also.

It's quite impressive that you're able to produce that fast with such a small crew. The colleague of mine whom I posed a similar question to said that drawing the animation frame-by-frame on 2's would require an additional two more animators and would take an extra week, based on his estimation.

When you build your models, generally speaking do you build them with full rotations? I mean, do you build the models in such a way that they can be reused in any scene and can be shot from any angle? DarthFurby has a tutorial about creating a head turn in ASP and I'm wondering if it's time effective to try to incorporate that kind of thing into every model or if it's better to treat every scene on a case-by-case basis. Personally I'm finding that while the DF technique is nice, it's probably faster to stick with using it on a case-by-case basis.

Glad to hear that you guys use bones. I was getting afraid that all your animations were entirely point animation -whew! Can't wait to see your new site, you have so many awesome toons!

[Freakish Kid]

Hey, thanks for getting back to me about this. I should've given a bit more details about some of the context before I asked the question, yet what you answered with was quite enlightening. I don't have any specific project in mind, but I wanted to provide a basis of comparison for convincing my colleages to switch from a Flash-based production workflow to something much more diverse.

I'm thinking that the hypothetical 30 second project would have 2 to 3 characters and no animated props. All designs would have been approved, but would need to be created and modelled in ASP.

-By "comp" do you mean compositing? If so then yes, the compositing would be done in-house also.

It's quite impressive that you're able to produce that fast with such a small crew. The colleague of mine whom I posed a similar question to said that drawing the animation frame-by-frame on 2's would require an additional two more animators and would take an extra week, based on his estimation.

When you build your models, generally speaking do you build them with full rotations? I mean, do you build the models in such a way that they can be reused in any scene and can be shot from any angle? DarthFurby has a tutorial about creating a head turn in ASP and I'm wondering if it's time effective to try to incorporate that kind of thing into every model or if it's better to treat every scene on a case-by-case basis. Personally I'm finding that while the DF technique is nice, it's probably faster to stick with using it on a case-by-case basis.

Glad to hear that you guys use bones. I was getting afraid that all your animations were entirely point animation -whew! Can't wait to see your new site, you have so many awesome toons!

Hi,

Yes by comp I mean compositing - best to be done in After FX or Combustion.

I understand the traditional estimation, unfortunately it does take a little longer to do things traditionally. Ruff Key, Inbetween, Clean Up, Scan, Ink & Paint - is a lot to do.

No we don't make the models for rotational purposes, that is just an insane amount of work! We'll take the board and produce keys digitally then make models from those keys and use them in the animation. It's a little more time consuming on the model front but the animation is very fast.

We have a few more new films on the new site that will blow you away!!!

GK

[Genete]

No we don't make the models for rotational purposes, that is just an insane amount of work! We'll take the board and produce keys digitally then make models from those keys and use them in the animation. It's a little more time consuming on the model front but the animation is very fast.

Grab this on your mind guys! but with fire!
-G

[DK]

Great info there Greykid. Well pointed out too Genete

No more 2.5D rig atempts for me then!!! I think I'll try to adapt Greykids technique.

Thanks again!
D.K

[slowtiger]

I told you so. *dones dead pan face*

[DK]

Oh Slow...I'm sorry mate if I have offended you in any way by posting my 2.5D tecniques on the forum. I always knew that a complete 2.5D AS model was never going to become a practical reality but some of us here shared the dream. I think synthsin75 came damn close though....but it IS fun trying to push AS to it's limits .... I am well aware of your disapproval but never the less these things need to be tried and tested and the tools in AS always need to be pushed to help develop new ideas.

Anyhow...I will wear being told..."I told you so" on this occasion

Cheers
D.K

[slice11217]

No we don't make the models for rotational purposes, that is just an insane amount of work! We'll take the board and produce keys digitally then make models from those keys and use them in the animation. It's a little more time consuming on the model front but the animation is very fast.

Grab this on your mind guys! but with fire!
-G

Great info there Greykid. Well pointed out too Genete

No more 2.5D rig atempts for me then!!! I think I'll try to adapt Greykids technique.

Thanks again!
D.K

Yeah, that's kind of why I had to ask them about that. Those 2.5D rigs were KILLING me!

....but they're oh so seductive.....

-Wha? Oh. Yeah. -no more 2.5D rigs, right.

No, it makes more sense. You keep your expenditure of time down to a minimum and the added benefit is that the drawing element of the character shows through much more.

I've been looking at "Les Rugbymen" a bit lately and I've noticed that there's not too many head turns and of the ones that there are, the rotation is only maybe 45 degrees maximum. You still get a lot of life out of the acting and the drawing integrity remains intact. The art direction in that short film is really strong and the animation has a lot of action to it.

I hope Greykid's done more like "Rugbymen".

I think that there is a benefit to exploring the 2.5D rig: when you go to set up a head turn in a non-2.5D model, you know how to layer the character and how to break up the elements of the model so as to affect the turn. I still feel as though I learned a lot from the experience.