The more I've seen of Lua the more disposed I am to agree with Vern (and others) that script access is the number one needed new feature (well, perhaps Vern wouldn't agree with that flat statement, but I'm sure he'd bring it up there).
There's nothing wrong with building in as much functionality as possible, but given a choice between Mike spending time on something that quite a few of us could do (given script access to whatever that area is) and spending time on something only he can do, I'd much rather he work on the stuff that cannot be done even with Lua Access (or work hard on granting such access).
Others might well say, "Well, that's good for you who can script but what about the rest of us?" and there is something to be said for that as well. But in the long run Mike can't possibly anticipate all that will be wanted but given enough Lua access we could probably always add it.
What I think is also needed is some sort of librarian or other "official" SM person to take care of the scripts that are available and provide easy access to even those who don't "get" scripting. That might go a long way toward solving a lot of requests around here that Mike wouldn't even have to look at.
(Then again, I'm still getting over a cold so perhaps I'm still feverish and still ranting. Sorry -- I'm an old man :>)
Feature versus Script Requests
Moderators: Víctor Paredes, Belgarath, slowtiger
I agree 100%. You said it more simply than I tend to do. Mike should work on features that only he can do in the application. Many many of the feature requests can be scripted with some minor additions to the script interface. I think even a combination of both would work as well. He could redesign the time line, improve it and at the same time open it up to scripting so we can change it.
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We definately need a more robust "AS Web Site" or forum. The forum software here is a bit... under powered. SM needs to get some cheap web server space so we can upload to the forum so people don't have to use "free" hosting sites to post animations and files. We need a way to upload and organize scripts using the same method.
All of those different hosting sites, some that require DOWNLOADING AN IMAGE OR ANIMATION before viewing it? Some that make you wait to download because you haven't paid them money... I honestly don't bother looking at anything if I click the link to view a simple file and have to spend a minute or two figuring out what to do next and which of the 5 different links is the one I want or having to close a bunch of pop up windows afterwards.
AS should have a full featured forum with upload space for both AS sample files, scripts and user created content. Web space is cheap. Bandwidth is cheap.
The main reason I haven't been very proactive organizing scripts is that I have to host it on my site (or someone else's). It should be hosted HERE. I could get hit by a bus.
-vern
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We definately need a more robust "AS Web Site" or forum. The forum software here is a bit... under powered. SM needs to get some cheap web server space so we can upload to the forum so people don't have to use "free" hosting sites to post animations and files. We need a way to upload and organize scripts using the same method.
All of those different hosting sites, some that require DOWNLOADING AN IMAGE OR ANIMATION before viewing it? Some that make you wait to download because you haven't paid them money... I honestly don't bother looking at anything if I click the link to view a simple file and have to spend a minute or two figuring out what to do next and which of the 5 different links is the one I want or having to close a bunch of pop up windows afterwards.
AS should have a full featured forum with upload space for both AS sample files, scripts and user created content. Web space is cheap. Bandwidth is cheap.
The main reason I haven't been very proactive organizing scripts is that I have to host it on my site (or someone else's). It should be hosted HERE. I could get hit by a bus.
-vern
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Víctor Paredes
- Site Admin
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I absolutely agree.
Vern's, let's think, if we would have a page to upload the scripts, what info should be given.
I suppose:
- script file
- image (maybe, to make the page nicer)
- name and version (maybe a link to old versions?)
- AS version in which works
- description
- issues
- installation
- sample files
Is that ok? I (with a programmer friend) could make an unofficial script page in which scripters could log-in and upload their new scripts. Then, if an official service appear, they could import the data in their hostings.
Vern's, let's think, if we would have a page to upload the scripts, what info should be given.
I suppose:
- script file
- image (maybe, to make the page nicer)
- name and version (maybe a link to old versions?)
- AS version in which works
- description
- issues
- installation
- sample files
Is that ok? I (with a programmer friend) could make an unofficial script page in which scripters could log-in and upload their new scripts. Then, if an official service appear, they could import the data in their hostings.
One thing that I dislike from user scripts is the fact of lake of support. It is true that some of scripters stay here and continue working but at the end the life makes people come and go and the support of the scripts is lost. For example fazek or 7feet. And you all know that all the scripts needs support and maintenance (even the original ones coming from LM - see the last split curve problem-).
This lack of support is related with the copyrights issues. If the fazek's replacement tools are awesome, why aren't they adopted as the official tools for the new versions (to correct them and to maintain them along the time)? I think that LM cannot adopt them because they are (at least the small modifications he did) part of his privative work and keep the rights of author. So, IMHO all the scripts that the community do are that, community scripts, and never can be adopted by the official version.
So I think that obtain more script interface for AS has double effects. For one side the users obtain quick features (workaround in most of the cases) but on the other hand those features will be never implemented in the official version.
User scripts are great! but they don't give money to SM. Even more: All those modifications of the tools scripts (specially the ones that only exists in the AS Pro version) that are free to download and install, are a risk for the business of SM. Any AS standard user can load them and obtain the Pro tools that he hasn't paid. Imagine that LM open the scripting for Actions and for onionskin. Someone can make a cool set of scripts that can give that features to the non Pro users.
Now kill me
-G
This lack of support is related with the copyrights issues. If the fazek's replacement tools are awesome, why aren't they adopted as the official tools for the new versions (to correct them and to maintain them along the time)? I think that LM cannot adopt them because they are (at least the small modifications he did) part of his privative work and keep the rights of author. So, IMHO all the scripts that the community do are that, community scripts, and never can be adopted by the official version.
So I think that obtain more script interface for AS has double effects. For one side the users obtain quick features (workaround in most of the cases) but on the other hand those features will be never implemented in the official version.
User scripts are great! but they don't give money to SM. Even more: All those modifications of the tools scripts (specially the ones that only exists in the AS Pro version) that are free to download and install, are a risk for the business of SM. Any AS standard user can load them and obtain the Pro tools that he hasn't paid. Imagine that LM open the scripting for Actions and for onionskin. Someone can make a cool set of scripts that can give that features to the non Pro users.
Now kill me
-G
Genete makes a really good point. Who "owns" the scripts that are publically available? What happens when the author of scripts "vanishes"?
Obviously right now the author has ownership or copyright. There is nothing anywhere on the forum that covers the ownership or legal use or editing of the scripts. It's based on the "honor system" which for something as important as this is probably not so good. You also can't "lock" or "protect" these scripts since they are just plain text. There is NO way to prevent them from being used or passed along. You can't create a great set of scripts and sell them with "unlock" codes or serial numbers because they are just plain text.
My thought would be a legal disclaimer on the "script upload page" that clearly states that all scripts uploaded are treated as OPEN SOURCE and free to all users to use and edit. The author still holds "copyright" but they can't prevent anyone else INCLUDING Smith Micro from modifying or even including those scripts in future versions of AS. Maybe the disclaimer could also have some sort of "compensation" or payment to script authors whose scripts are included in future distributions of AS?
Possibly in a future version of AS some way is created that scripts are stored in some kind of unreadable encrypted file in the application folder. These scripts would be "registered" or "official" scripts approved for use by SM. Users could still create, use and share their own scripts but if they aren't "encrypted" in a certain way maybe some aspect of the script interface is "blocked". This type of encrypted script could be a good way to differentiate between "SM" scripts and "user" scripts.
Also it should be fairly easy to limit script access for specific features in the standard version. Simply remove those access points in that version. Disable the ability to script the time line or onion skin etc. In the current standard version this was done "globally" for menu scripts. This could be more focused though. Instead of limiting just menu scripts while leaving the script interface totally unchanged just eliminate those features SM wants to "protect" or block for standard users.
There are "new" script access features in the current version of AS that weren't available in previous versions. The document "location" for instance was added in a previous version of Moho. Up to that point there was no way to get the path to the open document. The same could be done for the standard version. Eliminate or remove script access to some of the application.
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As for a script upload web server "somewhere else".... er... uh... I just don't think that is the best idea. Now you have to go somewhere else to get scripts. On someone else's web site... someone else who might "vanish" or the site goes down... etc etc. I want the script upload page to be HERE. A part of SM or LM or whatever. So the value and importance of the forum also protects the uploaded script files. Until that point I think we just plod along as we are now, doing the best we can with what we have.
Another option would be to create a "backup" section of the forum. Have all the scripts posted as text. This section could only be edited by moderators or whoever wants to be part of the script management. These posts would be locked so no comments would clutter them up. They would just be locked topics. The code would be in the post in very very small text so as to be easier to read and save out. A permanent storage area so we don't lose stuff.
This would take a while to do... it would take up the SAME OR MORE space on the forum server as having a file upload option (zip files would be more efficient use of server space) but it could be a temporary solution.
-vern
Obviously right now the author has ownership or copyright. There is nothing anywhere on the forum that covers the ownership or legal use or editing of the scripts. It's based on the "honor system" which for something as important as this is probably not so good. You also can't "lock" or "protect" these scripts since they are just plain text. There is NO way to prevent them from being used or passed along. You can't create a great set of scripts and sell them with "unlock" codes or serial numbers because they are just plain text.
My thought would be a legal disclaimer on the "script upload page" that clearly states that all scripts uploaded are treated as OPEN SOURCE and free to all users to use and edit. The author still holds "copyright" but they can't prevent anyone else INCLUDING Smith Micro from modifying or even including those scripts in future versions of AS. Maybe the disclaimer could also have some sort of "compensation" or payment to script authors whose scripts are included in future distributions of AS?
Possibly in a future version of AS some way is created that scripts are stored in some kind of unreadable encrypted file in the application folder. These scripts would be "registered" or "official" scripts approved for use by SM. Users could still create, use and share their own scripts but if they aren't "encrypted" in a certain way maybe some aspect of the script interface is "blocked". This type of encrypted script could be a good way to differentiate between "SM" scripts and "user" scripts.
Also it should be fairly easy to limit script access for specific features in the standard version. Simply remove those access points in that version. Disable the ability to script the time line or onion skin etc. In the current standard version this was done "globally" for menu scripts. This could be more focused though. Instead of limiting just menu scripts while leaving the script interface totally unchanged just eliminate those features SM wants to "protect" or block for standard users.
There are "new" script access features in the current version of AS that weren't available in previous versions. The document "location" for instance was added in a previous version of Moho. Up to that point there was no way to get the path to the open document. The same could be done for the standard version. Eliminate or remove script access to some of the application.
-----
As for a script upload web server "somewhere else".... er... uh... I just don't think that is the best idea. Now you have to go somewhere else to get scripts. On someone else's web site... someone else who might "vanish" or the site goes down... etc etc. I want the script upload page to be HERE. A part of SM or LM or whatever. So the value and importance of the forum also protects the uploaded script files. Until that point I think we just plod along as we are now, doing the best we can with what we have.
Another option would be to create a "backup" section of the forum. Have all the scripts posted as text. This section could only be edited by moderators or whoever wants to be part of the script management. These posts would be locked so no comments would clutter them up. They would just be locked topics. The code would be in the post in very very small text so as to be easier to read and save out. A permanent storage area so we don't lose stuff.
This would take a while to do... it would take up the SAME OR MORE space on the forum server as having a file upload option (zip files would be more efficient use of server space) but it could be a temporary solution.
-vern
Genete,
I understand your concerns. If AS were a professional application (and let's face it, even those of us who love it know it isn't) it would follow the path of such apps and each new version would incorporate the best of the third party efforts. This would be done in negotiation with those third parties and they would receive compensation for their efforts (remember, we're talking pro apps here, like 3D Max). It would be a win-win situation for everyone because in the meantime those third party scripts could be sold (once again, in a different application model) or made available to others in the meantime.
The AS model is none of those things, so it's unrealistic to expect that (for one basic difference, there doesn't appear to be a "regular" schedule of upgrades which is necessary to incorporate such third party additions). But I still think we can learn from this model.
In that pro model, third party apps have the same problems -- namely, the developers can come and go and support is then missing for upgrades. But since AS doesn't upgrade as frequently, this actually can be thought of as an advantage. IOW, it's unlikely a script written even years ago will not work in the present version of AS, or at least without a tiny bit of modification. As long as the script is available for mod (we'll get to that in a moment) there shouldn't be a concern about this aspect.
The other concern, support, is also somewhat moot in that regard since we're not talking about very complicated scripts (for the most part). I mean, a tool could be written to implement a particle system (as a replacement for what's in AS) but most tools have a much smaller scope and don't really need any manual or other support (in keeping with AS itself).
That really only leaves the question of rights -- and, once again, this is kind of moot given the AS model. I disagree with Vern here about rights -- Scripts are open source and there is no way to make this otherwise. This very fact means it's impossible to copyright them -- how are you going to prove you wrote a tool prior to someone else? Or that large portions of your own tool came first? Simply publishing it on the web doesn't insure this.
But the rest of what Vern says I agree with -- if AS does have some sort of "locked" script mode it would handle your other complaint (about anyone writing tools that makes the standard into a Pro version). I, for one, would hate to see such a mode, but perhaps it would encourage the best graphics programmers to take a stab at scripting. In the meantime I like all of Vern's other ideas on this point.
I, too, want the scripts to be hosted here. Uploading them could allow you to "agree" they are now either open source, or the property of SM, or both (or even still retain rights but for me that's not a big deal). This is the AS site, it should have all the AS stuff here.
But... Sometimes you just have to build it and they will come. So in that regard I like selgin's attitude. Yes, relying upon any third party is going to be iffy, but perhaps such a site could be mirrored. Better yet, someone at SM might see it (or have it hit them in the head with a hammer) and decide it was a Good Idea. So maybe it's better to just do something, anything, until (hopefully) the SM people wake up and smell the profits.
I understand your concerns. If AS were a professional application (and let's face it, even those of us who love it know it isn't) it would follow the path of such apps and each new version would incorporate the best of the third party efforts. This would be done in negotiation with those third parties and they would receive compensation for their efforts (remember, we're talking pro apps here, like 3D Max). It would be a win-win situation for everyone because in the meantime those third party scripts could be sold (once again, in a different application model) or made available to others in the meantime.
The AS model is none of those things, so it's unrealistic to expect that (for one basic difference, there doesn't appear to be a "regular" schedule of upgrades which is necessary to incorporate such third party additions). But I still think we can learn from this model.
In that pro model, third party apps have the same problems -- namely, the developers can come and go and support is then missing for upgrades. But since AS doesn't upgrade as frequently, this actually can be thought of as an advantage. IOW, it's unlikely a script written even years ago will not work in the present version of AS, or at least without a tiny bit of modification. As long as the script is available for mod (we'll get to that in a moment) there shouldn't be a concern about this aspect.
The other concern, support, is also somewhat moot in that regard since we're not talking about very complicated scripts (for the most part). I mean, a tool could be written to implement a particle system (as a replacement for what's in AS) but most tools have a much smaller scope and don't really need any manual or other support (in keeping with AS itself).
That really only leaves the question of rights -- and, once again, this is kind of moot given the AS model. I disagree with Vern here about rights -- Scripts are open source and there is no way to make this otherwise. This very fact means it's impossible to copyright them -- how are you going to prove you wrote a tool prior to someone else? Or that large portions of your own tool came first? Simply publishing it on the web doesn't insure this.
But the rest of what Vern says I agree with -- if AS does have some sort of "locked" script mode it would handle your other complaint (about anyone writing tools that makes the standard into a Pro version). I, for one, would hate to see such a mode, but perhaps it would encourage the best graphics programmers to take a stab at scripting. In the meantime I like all of Vern's other ideas on this point.
I, too, want the scripts to be hosted here. Uploading them could allow you to "agree" they are now either open source, or the property of SM, or both (or even still retain rights but for me that's not a big deal). This is the AS site, it should have all the AS stuff here.
But... Sometimes you just have to build it and they will come. So in that regard I like selgin's attitude. Yes, relying upon any third party is going to be iffy, but perhaps such a site could be mirrored. Better yet, someone at SM might see it (or have it hit them in the head with a hammer) and decide it was a Good Idea. So maybe it's better to just do something, anything, until (hopefully) the SM people wake up and smell the profits.
I would like to see a user update. Every six months to a year have a script page that downloads and changes you copy to the update that the users have created. Moho wasn't a 200 meg download. AS got bloated with animation samples. Most of them are from people who come here. If SM can get the rights to use the animation they can work out something to include other peoples scripts. I would be much happier with the bloat coming from scripts.
Poser happens to be SM money maker. It gets all the attention, I would like to see something being done with AS. Anything?
Dale
Poser happens to be SM money maker. It gets all the attention, I would like to see something being done with AS. Anything?
Dale
Here's a good script-repository as an example; http://registry.gimp.org/.
I know it's for the Gimp which is open source but there are loads of other semi-official repos for commercial softwares where to get scripts and plugins. Like highend3d.com or flashkit.com.
People go there for their Maya or Flash resources needs, not to Autodesk or Adobes cluttered websites.
So you can shout for an official repo from Lost Marble or SmithMicro or you could create one yourselves. If it's good and clear it will gain an semi-official status as the place to get your AS-scripts.
I know it's for the Gimp which is open source but there are loads of other semi-official repos for commercial softwares where to get scripts and plugins. Like highend3d.com or flashkit.com.
People go there for their Maya or Flash resources needs, not to Autodesk or Adobes cluttered websites.
So you can shout for an official repo from Lost Marble or SmithMicro or you could create one yourselves. If it's good and clear it will gain an semi-official status as the place to get your AS-scripts.
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synthsin75
- Posts: 10253
- Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:20 pm
- Location: Oklahoma
- Contact:
Selgin? I've changed my mind. 
I have been trying to think of good reasons why I don't like the idea of the script storage on "another" site. Mainly because it will be "different" from the forum or SM site. It will have a different look and feel and you will have to shift your thinking to access it. This could be totally overcome by a simple logical design and structure of the script download site. It should be very simple and easy to navigate.
Another thought would be how to link to those scripts within the AS forum. Could you link directly if needed? To a specific file? If so then we could just find the link to a script or the scripts "page" and post it in the forum.
We could even "duplicate" the site structure with in a locked forum topic in the AS forum with direct links to the scripts. In reality maybe all we need is a repository for scripts? Create the links and structure here?
--------
So let's think about a good structure for this.
I would want to "modify" that list slightly. Minor tweaks. Just put the "issues" last and maybe remove the installation for each script. We can have a screen capture video for all platforms showing EXACTLY how to install each type of on one "page".
I've mentioned in the past I'm working on a training site. This has expanded to included 2D programs like AS as well as 3D programs like Animation Master, poser, Vue etc. I'm working with a friend who has a domain for this that he hasn't been using and it's all set up and ready to go... uh... except for the training videos that need to be created... and some design of the site which I'm in charge of.
I think the script database could go on this site. We planned to charge a subscription fee. Have tiered subscription plans for access and levels of training. I would think a few bucks... a modest fee... very modest... just to access the scripts would be fair. This will be a lot of work... just an idea. Not locked in stone... just an idea. I don't know how the "open source" issue works with this idea but my thought is all those scripts are available for free in other places. This site would only have value for it's organization and easy access. Like sites that offer help with Javascript or HTML questions but charge a fee to access the database.
------------
On that topic though... I have to disagree about "ownership". A script with a copyright and a disclaimer about usage is the same as writing a song and expecting it to be protected. Just because the programming language itself is "open source" doesn't mean the code written using it is open source.
For instance I joined a web site called "Soundclick.com". You can create and share your own ORIGINAL music. When you upload your songs you choose yourself what king of licensing is permitted with the song. You can charge for its use, you can give it limited usage rights, or you can just say it's free.
I've purchased complex sets of Javascript for web use in the past. The legalize is clearly indicated in the comments and license files that come with it. The ability to verify compliance is another issue but the copyright is still valid.
So having said all of that... my feeling right now is that many of the things I have done for free have value. I am stinking broke. Behind on my mortgage... bills to pay... no work coming in. If I do any of this stuff I need to find a way to be compensated for it.
-vern
I have been trying to think of good reasons why I don't like the idea of the script storage on "another" site. Mainly because it will be "different" from the forum or SM site. It will have a different look and feel and you will have to shift your thinking to access it. This could be totally overcome by a simple logical design and structure of the script download site. It should be very simple and easy to navigate.
Another thought would be how to link to those scripts within the AS forum. Could you link directly if needed? To a specific file? If so then we could just find the link to a script or the scripts "page" and post it in the forum.
We could even "duplicate" the site structure with in a locked forum topic in the AS forum with direct links to the scripts. In reality maybe all we need is a repository for scripts? Create the links and structure here?
--------
So let's think about a good structure for this.
That looks good to me. Sample files for some older "orphaned" scripts might have to be created. Those of us doing "advanced" layer scripts usually create files to demonstrate their use.- script file
- image (maybe, to make the page nicer)
- name and version (maybe a link to old versions?)
- AS version in which works
- description
- issues
- installation
- sample files
I would want to "modify" that list slightly. Minor tweaks. Just put the "issues" last and maybe remove the installation for each script. We can have a screen capture video for all platforms showing EXACTLY how to install each type of on one "page".
I've mentioned in the past I'm working on a training site. This has expanded to included 2D programs like AS as well as 3D programs like Animation Master, poser, Vue etc. I'm working with a friend who has a domain for this that he hasn't been using and it's all set up and ready to go... uh... except for the training videos that need to be created... and some design of the site which I'm in charge of.
I think the script database could go on this site. We planned to charge a subscription fee. Have tiered subscription plans for access and levels of training. I would think a few bucks... a modest fee... very modest... just to access the scripts would be fair. This will be a lot of work... just an idea. Not locked in stone... just an idea. I don't know how the "open source" issue works with this idea but my thought is all those scripts are available for free in other places. This site would only have value for it's organization and easy access. Like sites that offer help with Javascript or HTML questions but charge a fee to access the database.
------------
On that topic though... I have to disagree about "ownership". A script with a copyright and a disclaimer about usage is the same as writing a song and expecting it to be protected. Just because the programming language itself is "open source" doesn't mean the code written using it is open source.
For instance I joined a web site called "Soundclick.com". You can create and share your own ORIGINAL music. When you upload your songs you choose yourself what king of licensing is permitted with the song. You can charge for its use, you can give it limited usage rights, or you can just say it's free.
I've purchased complex sets of Javascript for web use in the past. The legalize is clearly indicated in the comments and license files that come with it. The ability to verify compliance is another issue but the copyright is still valid.
So having said all of that... my feeling right now is that many of the things I have done for free have value. I am stinking broke. Behind on my mortgage... bills to pay... no work coming in. If I do any of this stuff I need to find a way to be compensated for it.
-vern
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synthsin75
- Posts: 10253
- Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:20 pm
- Location: Oklahoma
- Contact:
I would not agree that code can be copy written. Especially in AS lua, somethings have a bare few ways to go about doing them in code. Also, most of us non-programmers learned by copy/paste from other codes.
There's just no way to make a scripter somehow forget some neat coding trick he's seen.
But I wouldn't suggest trying to charge for the script archive. People are scared enough to brave the seemingly complicated world of scripts as it is. But if you can sell a banner to SM, I think that'd be the one small way SM could support this stuff.
There's just no way to make a scripter somehow forget some neat coding trick he's seen.
But I wouldn't suggest trying to charge for the script archive. People are scared enough to brave the seemingly complicated world of scripts as it is. But if you can sell a banner to SM, I think that'd be the one small way SM could support this stuff.
Vern,
I've been a programmer for 30 years so I know a little of what I speak of. Code can *definitely* have copyrights -- that's not my point. My point is that there is no way to enforce legal copyrights on code which is openly published. Trust me, it won't work in the U.S. and it certainly won't work in many countries which have much more liberal copyright laws than we do.
This isn't saying that your work doesn't have value, or that, in general, there is no such thing as "intellectual copyright" -- only that courts have consistently held that to prove code copyright requires things way above and beyond the call of what scripts can provide currently.
One step would indeed be compiled code (or otherwise scrambled so it can't be easily reverse engineered. As I said, as it stands now you have absolutely zero chance of proving the bone work you've coded is yours and yours alone -- even if we believe you. But I don't want to belabor this here -- write me a line if you'd like me to elaborate.
On that same issue I'm definitely against paying even a few dollars for access to an AS code repository. For one thing, I'd argue it will work against the openess of both the scripting as well as the use of it in AS. For another -- as you've argued, it really should be done here. If someone else wants to make a name for themselves (or a profit, or whatever) offering that service, then they should seek other avenues other than user base (perhaps ads or even seeking SM sponsorship).
We're WAY too early in the AS script process to start charging people even a few dollars for it. Wait until we can get a logical process established, something that everyone opts in for, and then the model can be changed. But right now it has to be the easiest, most accepted format available, and that does not include a fee-based site.
I've been a programmer for 30 years so I know a little of what I speak of. Code can *definitely* have copyrights -- that's not my point. My point is that there is no way to enforce legal copyrights on code which is openly published. Trust me, it won't work in the U.S. and it certainly won't work in many countries which have much more liberal copyright laws than we do.
This isn't saying that your work doesn't have value, or that, in general, there is no such thing as "intellectual copyright" -- only that courts have consistently held that to prove code copyright requires things way above and beyond the call of what scripts can provide currently.
One step would indeed be compiled code (or otherwise scrambled so it can't be easily reverse engineered. As I said, as it stands now you have absolutely zero chance of proving the bone work you've coded is yours and yours alone -- even if we believe you. But I don't want to belabor this here -- write me a line if you'd like me to elaborate.
On that same issue I'm definitely against paying even a few dollars for access to an AS code repository. For one thing, I'd argue it will work against the openess of both the scripting as well as the use of it in AS. For another -- as you've argued, it really should be done here. If someone else wants to make a name for themselves (or a profit, or whatever) offering that service, then they should seek other avenues other than user base (perhaps ads or even seeking SM sponsorship).
We're WAY too early in the AS script process to start charging people even a few dollars for it. Wait until we can get a logical process established, something that everyone opts in for, and then the model can be changed. But right now it has to be the easiest, most accepted format available, and that does not include a fee-based site.
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Víctor Paredes
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Well... if you can't copyright "code" I just can't figure out how Apple is getting sued over a patent on downloading music to a hand held device over wifi. or how they got the darn patent in the first place. They don't even have a working device described in the patent. Just "words" describing how it would work. It would be like getting a patent on "teleporting objects over long distances by breaking them up into little bits of energy". Then someday in the future when that technology exists you get rich.
I will keep working on my training site. I already have been contacted by people willing to pay for tutorials before they knew the idea existed! I've been working on a bunch of stuff for Animation Master including rag doll physics and "collision damage" using cloth.
I look forward to seeing whatever you come up with Selgin. I will gladly upload my scripts there. Uploading and typing in descriptions is easy... it's putting the whole thing together that's a pain.
-vern
They don't even have a working device described in the patent. Just "words" describing how it would work. It would be like getting a patent on "teleporting objects over long distances by breaking them up into little bits of energy". Then someday in the future when that technology exists you get rich. I will keep working on my training site. I already have been contacted by people willing to pay for tutorials before they knew the idea existed! I've been working on a bunch of stuff for Animation Master including rag doll physics and "collision damage" using cloth.
I look forward to seeing whatever you come up with Selgin. I will gladly upload my scripts there. Uploading and typing in descriptions is easy... it's putting the whole thing together that's a pain.
-vern
Vern,
Whether or not you can do something (like copyrighting code) has little or no relevance to whether people can sue -- people can sue over anything (I could sue you because I don't like the beard in your icon drawing). Ours is a litigious society (America has 60% of the world's attorney's, but only 30% of the world's scientists -- anyone wonder why there are so many lawsuits all the time? They have to do *something*).
And suing folks has little to do with whether you win or lose -- again, a long discussion way beyond the point of this thread. Once again, I didn't say you can't copyright code, only that publishing code openly makes it almost impossible to *prove* copyright. But if you want to discuss this privately (or even in another OT thread somewhere here more appropriately) I'll be glad to do so (I am not a lawyer but have played one on TV. Really :>)
And I don't want to discourage you from your training site -- let me be clear, what I am saying here is I don't want the model for a code repository to be a paid site *right at the moment*. If we are going to try and get scripts in some useful shape for the majority of AS users, the last thing we need do is to close access to it for any reason. If scripts work out properly there should be revenue streams available, trust me.
I'll say right now I'll most likely pay for your site even though I'm not sure how useful it will be for me -- only that I'd like to support you in any work you do for the AS community.
Whether or not you can do something (like copyrighting code) has little or no relevance to whether people can sue -- people can sue over anything (I could sue you because I don't like the beard in your icon drawing). Ours is a litigious society (America has 60% of the world's attorney's, but only 30% of the world's scientists -- anyone wonder why there are so many lawsuits all the time? They have to do *something*).
And suing folks has little to do with whether you win or lose -- again, a long discussion way beyond the point of this thread. Once again, I didn't say you can't copyright code, only that publishing code openly makes it almost impossible to *prove* copyright. But if you want to discuss this privately (or even in another OT thread somewhere here more appropriately) I'll be glad to do so (I am not a lawyer but have played one on TV. Really :>)
And I don't want to discourage you from your training site -- let me be clear, what I am saying here is I don't want the model for a code repository to be a paid site *right at the moment*. If we are going to try and get scripts in some useful shape for the majority of AS users, the last thing we need do is to close access to it for any reason. If scripts work out properly there should be revenue streams available, trust me.
I'll say right now I'll most likely pay for your site even though I'm not sure how useful it will be for me -- only that I'd like to support you in any work you do for the AS community.