OS debates

heyvern · Post by **heyvern** » Thu May 28, 2009 6:04 am

I hate to disagree... uh... no... I think I love to disagree actually.

You can "fiddle with the workings" of a Mac if you want to. Keep in mind it is based on UNIX. You can launch the terminal and other tools and do all kinds of funky dangerous things. I've done this MANY times. I set up a web server for running Ruby on Rails using the terminal and some other wacky thing in the utilities application folder that is very frightening and involves typing in "funky code".

I have never had any trouble with setting up a network on my mac. I have 3 macs on the network with one PC. When I first got the main Mac I use for production right now, it had OS 9. I updated to OS X and the network... was "plug and play". It only took me a few minutes. Of course I'm using a router so that made it very easy.

I have an OS X mac and an OS 9 mac and OS 8.5 mac on the same network. Works like a charm. My PC is sort of like my file server at the moment. It has a way bigger hard drive. I do have an external FW drive hooked to the mac with about 250gb. I can access any and all computers from any computer on the network.

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Software availability? Well... some day I will buy a new Intel Mac. When I do I will install one of those "dual boot" thingies to run windows on my mac. However, so far there really isn't anything on the PC I can't get for the Mac. I use a lot of open source programs and they run on mac of pc and are IDENTICAL in every way. I have the same applications on both computers.

There also fantastic programs for the Mac YOU CAN'T GET FOR PC AT ALL!!! Yet no one complains about that. Programs that have no PC or windows equivalent. There's a fantastic text editor called Textmate that many PC users keep begging to be ported to Windows but the developer refuses because he loves Mac.

It's wicked cool and there just isn't anything quite like it for Windows. I've looked.

Don't get me started on "price". I'm sorry. You get what you pay for. Macs come with much more out of the box than a PC does. You get iLife, iOffice or whatever it's called... with page layout, word processing, spreadsheets, production tools to get started right away. Windows does not come with OFFICE. You have to buy those tools. Mac comes with iMovie and iDVD. Those programs kick arse baby. Garage Band... wicked cool.

Yes there is a bit of a "style" aspect to the price of a mac. I still have my first mac. It's just 20 years old this year. I bought it in '89... it still works. Not kidding. A 20 year old computer still works as if I bought it yesterday. Macs are SOLID. They just last for freaking ever. The problem with PC's is that so many different companies make them that there is no "standard" of quality. With Mac they are all built with the same standard.

Don't start with the stories of exploding batteries and broken Macs... come on... those things happen to EVERY technology company and can't be used to paint all Apple products with one brush. All companies that make computers have blown it and screwed customers. All of them. No one is innocent. So bringing up those times when Apple failed is fine and dandy, just make sure you mention every other computer company and MS that made similar mistakes as well.

When you buy a Mac you are good to go right out of the box. You can start immediately doing ANYTHING you want. With a PC you WILL have to buy a few things to get started. The price issue is a wash in my opinion.

And don't forget the cost of support over time. It's well known that Macs in general have low cost for maintenance over the life of the computer than a PC. One of my neighbors have gone through THREE freaking PCs in TWO YEARS due to viruses. Seriously. I've been over their 3 or 4 times trying to fix their machine. They bought new computers because they just didn't know what else to do. I kept telling them to just reformat the drive and start over but they just felt it was simpler and somehow cheaper to buy a new PC. There's your price difference. Virus protection and maintenance.

A few years back there was another neighbor with the same problem. Hit by viruses. They bought a new computer. One of my Uncles... same story. Viruses... bought a new computer. I'm not saying that is the CORRECT thing to do but sometimes people are desperate.

-vern

Mikdog · Post by **Mikdog** » Thu May 28, 2009 9:49 am

From being a hardcore PC user who used to buy separate PC parts and assembled my PC from scratch, read PC mags and oggle at the latest graphics cards, know about the latest motherboard developments, know which RAM was good, keeping up to speed with the latest devs in processor speed, being a Windows XP user, etc... and then switching to MAC, I can say that using a Windows PC is like balancing a house of cards and constantly re-adjusting and checking it to make sure it doesn't all come tumbling down, picking cards up and putting them back to support the structure. Frustration galore. Compared to using a Mac, which is like a stallion running through a field of marigolds at sunset.

This last weekend my brother had a birthday and his friend's girlfriend was trying to make a slideshow for his friend on her Windows laptop on Vegas. The thing crashed multiple times and she had to restart Windows. Then when Windows restarted all this weird stuff happened that made us wait and wait and wait and little info boxes popped up and when I inserted a memory stick all these gates and superflous messages popped up, it wanted to install the thing and man, just a MISSION for simple simple simple tasks. Took forever. Then more waiting.

She wanted me to make a slideshow for my brother. I could last 5 minutes until the frustration got the better of me. I had to restart the computer because Vegas froze and Windows was grating me the wrong way. Its like Windows is this translator for a million different languages and has to try and somehow bring it all together.

I went to my bro's Macbook and MAN what a breeze. I almost knew that things just worked on a Mac, and all the programs were made by the same people so everything just works together and talks the same language. Popped the memory stick in, copied the photos from the flashdrive, wham bam added music exported without crashing, unlike my bro's friend's gf who had to hold thumbs on numerous occassions to get the export to run the whole way through, and that was that.

Then when we had to set up the projector to her PC laptop. Oh man. On a Mac you simply plug it in and it works. On a PC, its like a mission deluxe. Ugh, really irks me how clunky PC tech is. Things should just work, and from experiencing both, I way prefer Mac stuff.

mkelley · Post by **mkelley** » Thu May 28, 2009 12:58 pm

Vern,

You exactly prove my point -- if going into the terminal window to do things to your Mac is what you do, then you might as well just be running a straight Linux machine. The Mac is not about that.

And, sorry, but the high-end software I run (like Max) will not run in an "emulation" mode on a Mac. I didn't say there was *better* software on a PC, just that many things I needed professionally wouldn't run on a Mac and never will. You do what you need to do.

And the fact that a neighbor bought multiple PCs because of a virus just tells me a whole lot about the neighbor than it does about PCs. Hey, I'm a level four support on the Apple forum, and I know how many brain dead people there are out there. Many of them buy Apple products, because half the time when something doesn't work it's because it ain't plugged into electricity. Geniuses they aren't.

But I refuse to comment or visit this thread further -- as I said initially, I didn't want to get involved in an OS war. It's one Mac users can never win anyway (not with 1.5% of the market share). I'm really really glad there are Macs because there are people who need them, because the commercials are very entertaining, and because it apparently helps Apple stay in business so they can make iPhones and iPods that I can buy. But to take them seriously as a computer company -- nope, just can't.

dm · Post by dm » Thu May 28, 2009 9:41 pm

mkelley wrote:... and because it apparently helps Apple stay in business so they can make iPhones and iPods that I can buy. But to take them seriously as a computer company -- nope, just can't.

I think it's the other way 'round. I'm pretty sure the money is coming from the phones and pods-people need computers to support them though.

There's some heavy duty software being ported to Mac OS these days (in process, and done). CAD stuff, Math, things like that. Most of my dual platform software runs faster/better on the Mac. Some doesn't.

I don't know why anyone cares. I've never been able to fathom how people can be so invested in the junk they buy. I've got assorted versions of Windows, MacOS (and X-11), and Linux running. I use whatever box is best for the job. Most of the time it's the Mac, sometimes it's not. I don't really care. It tends to be the least annoying...

synthsin75 · Post by **synthsin75** » Thu May 28, 2009 10:37 pm

Damn, you people are very disappointing. I saw some flames licking at other threads and thought it couldn't hurt to let the bond fire burn here, but you people are all nice and civil.

What nerve!

heyvern · Post by **heyvern** » Fri May 29, 2009 3:50 am

mkelley wrote: But I refuse to comment or visit this thread further -- as I said initially, I didn't want to get involved in an OS war.

Yeah this is another thing Apple users get all the time...

I don't mean any offense, it's nothing personal so please don't take this the wrong way, I don't want to start and argument but... Apple sucks and you are so stupid for buying a Mac.

Nearly 20 years of defending my personal computer purchase choice. 20 years of being made fun of and criticized. 20 years of LIES about Apple and made up statistic. If you don't want to start a flame war than... well... you shouldn't start one.

It's one Mac users can never win anyway (not with 1.5% of the market share). I'm really really glad there are Macs because there are people who need them, because the commercials are very entertaining, and because it apparently helps Apple stay in business so they can make iPhones and iPods that I can buy. But to take them seriously as a computer company -- nope, just can't.

1.5% of the ENTIRE COMPUTER MARKET IS HUGE! Apple is STRONG. At least you are aware that it's Apple that makes the iPod then? And the iPhone? You noticed those did you? SAME DANG COMPANY! The same company that made those products MAKE THE MAC I USE!

It was Apple that invented digital video. QT was first. WMV came much later as a response to QT. It was Apple that created the iMac. That funky computer that changed the industry.

It was THEIR products that CREATED the industry we are in right now. Apple was responsible for POSTSCRIPT (Adobe created it but Apple needed it for their printers) without which there was no desktop publishing.

Apple was the first to have NLE desktop video editing, graphic design on the desktop. Apple was the first with USB... Firewire (crap didn't Apple "invent" FW?). Apple was the first with flat screen LCD monitors STANDARD for ALL of their computers. the list goes on. Market share is meaningless. Market share DOES NOT indicate QUALITY! Apple is a HUGE GIGANTIC BILLION DOLLAR COMPANY based on itsy bitsy 1.5% market share. Any of us would be RICH beyond avarice with 1.5% market share of anything that big.

Apple innovates others copy it and then ridicule the company and its customers. 20 freaking years!!!! 20 FREAKING FRAKING YEARS I hear this CRAP. I am SOOOOOOOO SICK OF IT ALREADY!

As I said... I've heard this crap for 20 years. Did I mention that?

This is what Apple users have to listen to for NO REASON WHATSOEVER.

Why the heck do PC, Windows, Linux or Unix users CARE so much what Apple computer users are buying? Why do you guys have to attack us and the company?

WE DIDN'T START THIS!!!!!! Apple users did not start this "war". Why do you CARE if we like our Apple computers? Why? Why do you have to say crap to piss us off so much?

Apple is a STRONG VIABLE SUCCESSFUL company that makes brilliant products. I am sure there are many PC makers who also make great products. I use a dagnab PC every single day. I've already said I use it more because my mac is old and needs an upgrade or replacement.

It's a PREFERENCE. Apple isn't better than Windows or linux. Windows is NOT better than Apple. Linux and Unix are NOT better than Apple or Windows. Linux and Unix is not better than Apple... they are all tools of choice and NEED.

You don't want to start a "flame" war. Then don't start one!

-vern

synthsin75 · Post by **synthsin75** » Fri May 29, 2009 4:09 am

That's more like it! Get it all out. Here just lie down on this couch and tell me all about it.

And how does that make you feel.........and how does that make you feel...?

Vern, I imagine you've held so much back during beta testing that any outlet is welcomed.

But seriously, I would have to agree about using terminal. (That's the Mac equivalent of DOS, right?) That's a bit extreme to me, and why I shy away from Linux. I do prefer to have all that accessible through the OS UI.

Genete · Post by **Genete** » Fri May 29, 2009 8:20 am

As nobody here is torching the Linux voice I'll put more wood to the fire.

This is my vision:
A mayority of the people that uses windows doesn't own the software that is running on it. Lately they own the windows itself because they have been obligated to pay for it when they buy the PC. ALL the poeple I know (not companies) that uses windows are in that situation. Nobody, I repeat, nobody owns the Office suit and not talk on the rest of the software. Maybe it is only Spain but that's how it is.
A great amount of people uses a PC just to web surf and for use a small % of the officie suit. Ah! and for gaming!
All they suffer the virus attack and are very worried when the pirate version of the anti-virus expires.
Also they complains because windows is very annoying (at last Vista). Too much intrusion.
Most of them surf internet as system administrators "because if not I cannot do nothing!"

Windows is a good operating system. If you know how to use it. It has (luckily) lot of hardware producers support so the drivers are always available. There are lots of good programs and works reasonabely well. The windows users are the problem. And they are treated from Microsoft as they deserve.

Mac is at the edge of innovation. The programs (included the operating system that has had some problems with the Leopard version) have a lot of quality. The hardware is very well designed. Cool, intuitive and works out of the box.
But quality is not cheap. Also it is not easy to expand. You usually don't upgrade Mac hardware, just keep it as it is (please tell me if I'm wrong)

Linux is free. It is opensource and anyone can modify it to its needs. There are lots of versions to choose. It works on PC, Mac, Sun, and other platforms (Xbox, palm, etc).
Linux has very small support form the hardware developers so it is always "late" in terms of cutting edge hardware.
On the other hand it hasn't virus problems. You're obligated to work as normal user and it makes more difficult to have a virus attack.
Linux was for "experts". It has evolved in the last times and the user interface is more friendly and less command line. You can use ubuntu normally without any need to go to the command line, unless you want to do fancy things.

So, as I cannot afford Mac and don't want to spend any money on the software and also don't want to enter in the piracy wheel, I'm sticked to linux since, I think, 10 years now.

Recently my old PC (that still having Windows 98 as secondary OS) died. I only have Linux on my current PC. And I recently bought a tablet pc and it runs Ubnutu smoothly. Included Windows Vista only stay about one day on it.

-G

Patmals · Post by **Patmals** » Fri May 29, 2009 9:05 am

Commodore 64 anyone?

The400th · Post by **The400th** » Fri May 29, 2009 2:31 pm

No OS war thread is complete without the obligatory Raven comic.

PS bizarrely I think the writer of this strip is now a Mac fanboi...

heyvern · Post by **heyvern** » Fri May 29, 2009 2:42 pm

Thank you Synthsin... I feel better now.

I love the terminal. I never used it before but with just a few key strokes you can do all kinds of cool stuff.

Mac NEVER EVER had that kind of control before OS X. It just wasn't possible. Actually that was a good thing in its day. I remember using a Mac many versions ago when I knew EVERYTHING installed on it. I could see all the extensions and widgets in the system. Back then there were NO invisible files. All the gizmos that made the Mac work could be viewed and understood.

I freaked out with OS X because now my beloved Mac was as confusing as Windows.

. Luckily some years before OS X came out I had worked for a photographer who used Unix and the Barco editing software. I had to learn Unix interface and command line stuff to back up and transfer files across multiple hard drives.

During that time I also had to learn Windows. I believe I was using Win 3 back then? It was mainly for creating MM Director interactive CDs. The company I worked for had to create CDs that ran on Mac and Windows.

Anyone remember Windows 3? You know what I'm talking about. That was MY first introduction to Windows. That is what I was comparing to the Mac. Windows 3 vs OS 7 or 8 (I forget which one at the time). There was no comparison. None.

Now things are very much different. Using my PC with XP is very very close to what I do on the Mac. It's not exactly the same but sometimes I actually forget which computer I am using because my open source programs look identical.

-vern

F.M. · Post by **F.M.** » Fri May 29, 2009 2:48 pm

! swear, you guys are just to darn funny!

dueyftw · Post by **dueyftw** » Fri May 29, 2009 3:27 pm

Recently my old PC (that still having Windows 98 as secondary OS) died. I only have Linux on my current PC. And I recently bought a tablet pc and it runs Ubnutu smoothly. Included Windows Vista only stay about one day on it. Wink

Gee, I hope you got your money back from the computer manufacture for removing M$ Vista.

Dale

heyvern · Post by **heyvern** » Fri May 29, 2009 4:32 pm

I have to agree that MS has been very active over the years in preventing Linux from gaining any market share. Their behavior of forcing computer makers into agreements that prevented them from selling "empty" machines to Linux and Unix users was not right. I would say it really should be illegal.

Is this changing now? I read about many computer companies selling machines with no OS?

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Some years back I did experiment with "linux". I was part of the beta program for that linux system called "Lindows". It ran a ton of Windows applications but was linux based. It was NOT an emulator either so the programs were running pretty quickly. I think it was based on a version of Wine. I had a dual boot on my old PC to run a beta version of Lindows (they got sued later and had to change the name to "Linspire".)

The goal of the company was to make installing linux and applications "easy" for anyone. Like your "grandmother" could install it with no problems. For a short time they were selling computers with the OS preinstalled at Kmart or Walmart (I forget now) for about $300.

Back then they had an online "store" that was very much like the iPhone App store. You would log into your account and you could download free or very very cheap applications from their "catalog". The system did the download and install without much user interaction making it simple to get new stuff. You could sign up for a monthly fee and down load anything for free, or you could "pay as you go".

It never caught on unfortunately (I was looking for a "cheap" way to run windows applications without having to buy the windows OS). Eventually the company gave up trying to run windows applications. Apparently it was just too hard to do this effectively. Not enough Win apps ran on it well and MS kept changing things to screw them up either on purpose or... whatever. They pretty much went with developing a "straight" linux OS. I uninstalled it and went to W2K.

-vern

Manu · Post by **Manu** » Fri May 29, 2009 6:05 pm

Can't be bothered to read the whole thread. Just thought I'd give my angle on this whole Apple vs PC debate.

A few years ago, my old G4 was ready to be replaced. Should I go Mac or PC?

I decided to find out how much I would save by buying a PC. So I went to the Dell website and got myself a quote for the machine that I wanted, did the same thing on the Apple website and sure enough, the Dell was £500 more expensive...

...wait, what was that? The Dell is more expensive? And not by a small margin either? I must have done something wrong.

So I did it again. No matter what I tried, give the Dell the cheapest memory and the Mac the most expensive. I put the slowest Dell next to the fastest Mac. Any dirty trick, you name it. The Mac remained the cheapest machine.

I bought the Mac of course.

Since then, prices have changed and Dells are probably cheaper.

To this day, I keep hearing people repeating the old "Mac expensive, PC cheap" adagio and just smile. Sometimes it's better to check up on the facts yourself rather than go along with what everybody "knows" to be the "truth".