Action Keyframes Disappear After Awhile

GregSmith · Post by **GregSmith** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 9:45 pm

I've done several "Action" experiments with Version 6, and the first set of errors I encountered caused keyframes to vanish from the "Group" folder, (which contained all of the bone and vector layers involved in the action), where the action keyframes were set.

It seems the trigger for this is simply clicking on any other layer in the animation.

Try it and see for yourself.

Greg Smith

synthsin75 · Post by **synthsin75** » Thu Jun 04, 2009 11:38 pm

I can't for the life of me get any keyframes to show up on the Group layer unless I actually do something to the Group layer. There is no reason it should unless you have keys on that Group layer's channels in the Action. There'd be nothing else to show up. If there is, then it is the showing up that's in error, not the vanishing.

Uncheck the "consolidate timeline channels" in the preferences. What animation channel is showing as keyed in the Group layer (that is vanishing)?

GregSmith · Post by **GregSmith** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:53 am

If you are keying the actions that were set on the group layer, then these actions that are "instanced" on that layer should show up as action keyframes - and they do . . . for a while.

Just try it yourself and you will see this.

Greg Smith

heyvern · Post by **heyvern** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:08 am

I suppose you guys aren't interested if I say I can't replicate this right? That actions work for me? I must not be doing it right.

I've tried and tried and tried... it just works fine.

We need to see the video... but we REALLY REALLY REALLY need the file to see what else you are doing.

(I'll upload a screen capture to youtube later to show what I'm doing at least)

-vern

heyvern · Post by **heyvern** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 2:17 am

This is annoying to me. I just spent the last half hour wasting my time. So either you aren't doing it right or you are expecting results that are different than how it should work...

I used the default model that opens with AS 6.
Created an action with multiple keys and also one key.
In these actions I, reordered layers, moved points, changed switch layers, moved layers, etc etc...

I went back to the main time line, went to a key frame and inserted a copy of the action. All the keys were placed, layer order, point motion, layer translation, switch layers etc etc.

I also tried inserting reference... same result.

What are the exact steps?

-vern

GregSmith · Post by **GregSmith** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:01 am

Vern:

Here is the video you requested:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDv67HH6GMU

Try it out yourself, step-by-step

Greg Smith

synthsin75 · Post by **synthsin75** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 4:25 am

Vern, do this:

1. start a new project
2. create one group layer with two vector layers inside it
3. create a shape on each (so you can see the layer sorting)
4. remember how they are currently sorted (this is important)
5. create a new action on the group layer and swap the vector layer order on frame one
6. return to main timeline

Now the layer order will be based on the one you set in the action even though you haven't even applied any action to the main timeline and only changed the layer order on frame one while editing the action.

Thanks Greg. That video helped me sort the cause of this problem out. When you set up that third action, with the layer ordering key, it changed the layer order of frame zero in the main timeline.

That's fairly serious when action editing is screwing with the main timeline. I, personally, don't plan on fielding the endless repetitions of that question we are bound to see. This will only make a feature that some already found hard to use more so.

heyvern · Post by **heyvern** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 4:35 am

What you are seeing isn't "real".

Do the steps you describe. Now save the document. Open it again. The layers are correct. If you undock then dock the layers palette... the layers are in the correct order.

----

Do the steps. Then insert the layer order action on the main time line. The layers are correct.

--------

This is a "redraw" issue and VERY MINOR. It does NOT actually change the file. It is just not updating the display immediately in the layers palette.

-vern

GregSmith · Post by **GregSmith** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 4:52 am

Maybe you didn't notice, but in my video, first, no keyframes appear in the timeline, then some appear when keyed - not consistent and definitely a bug.

Greg Smith

heyvern · Post by **heyvern** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:18 am

1. Layer order IS KEYED in an action. You were going crazy about that point... "can't use this now... won't upgrade" etc etc.

2. Keys "vanishing" and "reappearing". That is NOT what was happening. You need to investigate the problem so you can report it correctly. I had no freaking clue what you were describing. I didn't notice the bug you were describing because I was USING THE ACTIONS in the main time line. When I did that YOUR BUG did not even show up. When I saved the file and reopened... no bug. Add keys... no bug.

I agree with you that this is a bug. But it doesn't crash the program. It doesn't corrupt data or the file... it goes away at the drop of a hat (or a key frame).

-----

Look how many posts it took before you actually listed the STEPS required to make this happen. Those steps should have been the FIRST POST. You can't upload an actual file and that video is as clear as mud.

-vern

synthsin75 · Post by **synthsin75** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:36 am

Vern,

Look, I haven't even been able to save most the time with my 'final' registered ASD6 and never with the Pro demo. And that little rant must have felt good, because you didn't even get close to telling the guy what the problem was. Go back to giving us useless smart ass remarks instead of useless rants.

Greg,

I sympathize. It's very easy to assume bugs once you've run into enough ACTUAL ones. It can't be helped. We all just get gun shy.

Here's the deal with those 'vanishing' keyframes. The group layer only has the layer order channel being keyed for that third action that includes layer sorting. All of you other actions don't have any channels on the group layer being keyed. Now if you add layer sorting keys to each of your actions, they will all appear on the group layer timeline when copied or referenced (even just changing the order and changing it back will key the actions).

Vern is right about that not being a bug, but I'm still not sure about the other one (supposed redraw issue). I'm tired of fucking around with the Pro demo since it keeps fucking up my registered ASD6 install.

heyvern · Post by **heyvern** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:52 am

This "bug" has been in AS 5.6 since animated layer order was added at least a year or more ago. This bug has been so... unnoticeable till now that no one ever reported it.

-vern

GregSmith · Post by **GregSmith** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:31 pm

If it's not a bug, then it is a large inconvenience.

I don't use Anime Studio much, anymore - so coming at it fresh, so to speak, it seems to me that when you are keying an action on a layer that contains everything else in the project, a keyframe should be set on that layer for every kind of action that is being instanced at that point in time. How else are you to determine when you've set them and when you haven't. How is it intended that you should edit the actions that you have introduced?

Is it normal behaviour that every key that the action contains, (as when it was created), gets planted into the timeline, on whatever layer it was keyed, and adds to the confusing mess that already exists there? If that is the case, then there can be no specific editing of the "action keyframes", since they are all confused with the ones created outside the action.

Greg Smith

slice11217 · Post by **slice11217** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:58 pm

It's not a bug! Look very closely at the beginning of the movie. Greg cycles through the actions to show the different positions. Only one of the positions has a keyframe on frame 1! The rest are very likely a frame 0 keyframe modification. When he goes to apply the actions to the timeline, the only one of the actions that records a keyframe is the one with a key on frame 1!

That's what I noticed. It looks to me like this is user error.

F.M. · Post by **F.M.** » Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:37 pm

Oh hell, this is better than a soap opera!