Question on Background tools

[Rhoel]

I was looking at Haruka naru toki no naka de 3: Owari naki unmei, and was struck by the backgrounds - quality work. But the question is what technique is being used - natural watercolour or a digital real media drawing package such as Xara? I have tried PhotoShop with varying degrees, but it doesn't feel like the "right" tool.

Two examples:





If anyone has used a digital package which can deliver this kind of effect, I would welcome your thoughts.

Rhoel
(Oh sugar honey iced tea, it's 03:59 again)

[slowtiger]

It's hard to judge from those small pics, but I think you can do this kind of work in nearly any technique: traditionally on paper as well as in Photoshop or TVPaint. And there are lots of other programs out there which I don't even know.

In the end it all depends on the artist's knowledge of painting techniques, and of course experience with the tools. Since I started to do more elaborate BGs for my "big film" I've already learned a lot, but that wouldn't do if I hadn't had lots of knowledge about painting before, including the lessons my father gave me. (Oh, and that's the first time I can boast his homepage: http://www.adolf-kempken.de)

[Rhoel]

It's hard to judge from those small pics, but I think you can do this kind of work in nearly any technique: traditionally on paper as well as in Photoshop or TVPaint. And there are lots of other programs out there which I don't even know.

Thanks ST - I am used to PhotoShop but for me, its not feeling the natural tool at the moment, hence looking for other, more artist rather than photographer designed tools. I have worked with oils which I enjoyed more than acrylics - but waiting a week or month for a background to dry before adding another layer might be a bit of a negative for animation backgrounds.

I have never tried TVPaint - what is your take on it. I have downloaded Xara Extreme Pro 5 trial overnight and hopefully it will install okay on this machine. I have a friend who used PS and Xara and she loves the combination. I am sure this thread might be beneficial to a lot of people who are trying to extend their professional look.

[this is] the first time I can boast his homepage: http://www.adolf-kempken.de).

Time to watc the Google ranking jump. Not sure why but I like the Landschaften umOsnabrück collection best.


Thanks.

Rhoel
(Oh sugar honey iced tea, it's 09:20!)

Afterthought:
Before heading to bed last night, I ran a quick test after I saw an example of back-light flare (as opposed to lens flare), and it caused me to think about how I achieved that effect under 35mm camera, using diffusion filters. Digitally, its hard to reproduce.

So I tried using a grouped character layer as a matte on a heavily blurred transparent light glow fill. Hey presto, you get a really convincing light-leak in front of the character! I need to polish the technique and generate a demo still but it has real potential. Japanese anime frequently uses full screen fills and "graduated lens filters" to achieve that rich look. But the test shows if the back-light matte is added to the composite, the whole thing really gels.

Very excited by the development.

[slowtiger]

I use TVPaint for 3 yrs now and won't trade it for anything else in that field. It's affordable and comfortable enough for my taste (now). The drawing response is even faster than in Photoshop. It has its disadvantages, which is the reason why I do all my moving camera stuff in AS which is much faster with that.

My own style is not very painterly, I use something resembling pencils and crayons instead. But if you have a look in the TVP forum you'll find lots of fine examples others do with it. (http://www.tvpaint.com/forum/viewforum. ... c42f7db904)

Didn't we already talk about camera lens effects and how to reproduce them digitally long ago? I especially like the effects of mask and counter-mask which I use in painting BGs every day. Just this week I've started a new bunch of backgrounds based on photographies, very much to the effect of Miyazaki and the like. I pick the basic colours right from the photo, which saves a lot of time. Over this first layer of flat colours I start to refine the image with crayon textures, then a layer set to multiply (or, even better, "grain merge", a mode I only found in TVPaint) for all shadows.

I made a multiplane setup of the elevated Berlin subway, when it's a bit more finished I'll post it here.

[Rhoel]

Okay, there is the test from last night. Ignoring the text, the still is a single pass render. The back-light flare is only applied to the upper edge, to show the comparison.




The candle and flame are in their own Group layer. The bar and back-light fill are in another group:

The layers ordering is

Code: Select all

Scene Group - Masking(hide_all)
	Backlight flare - vector fill - blur(50), Opacity(35%)
	Bar - vector box - masking(+add layer)
Group Flame
	Candle flame - clone  - Blur(100), Opacity(75%) Layer blending mode(Luminosity).
	Candle flame - vector - graduated fill.

That works fine.

But then I tested

Code: Select all

Scene Group - Masking(hide_all)
	Backlight flare - vector fill - blur(50), Opacity(35%)
	Group Character
		Head
		Body
	Group Light Source - masking(+add layer)
		Candle flame - clone  - Blur(100), Opacity(75%)Layer blending mode(Luminosity).
		Candle flame - vector

And that works too
This is actually very interesting - I need to work out the dynamic possibilities but group matting group is very handy ... the character group can move independently of the matted object; I am not sure when this was introduced but I tried this yonks ago and it wouldn't work. In this case, as the character obliterated the light source, some visibility/opacity settings would have to be cheated but it works. Cool!.

The Layer blending mode(Luminosity) is a fun tool which allows effects to kick off strongly from the white objects but do nothing on the blacks: grays in-between have a percentage effect.

Definitely worth loosing 4 hours sleep over.

Footnote:
Downloaded Xara Trial - vector based. Not what I am looking for.
Currently downloading the TVPaint Trial.

Thanks ST for the fast feedback - look forward to the Berlin BG ... be a reminder of the "good ole days" in Swedtler Allee

[uddhava]

Thanks ST - I am used to PhotoShop but for me, its not feeling the natural tool at the moment, hence looking for other, more artist rather than photographer designed tools.

You could try Coral Painter $400 or Art Rage Studio Pro $80. Art Rage Studio is $40 and AR 2.5 is $20. These both art for painting. Lately I have been using My Paint which is for free and exports layered PNG files. It has some very nice natural painting and drawing tools.

http://mypaint.intilinux.com/
http://www.artrage.com/
http://www.corel.com/servlet/Satellite/ ... 6553885783

udd

[PARKER]

I think i can do those backgrounds in AS, no doubt, it will be a lot of work to do because they have a lot of details and realistic textures but im used to that kind of work .

By the way, you can find GREAT background art in comics too.

[uddhava]

(Oh, and that's the first time I can boast his homepage: http://www.adolf-kempken.de)

Slowtiger,

By the way, thanks for sharing your father's work . I especially like his landscapes and landscapes with buildings.

udd

[Rhoel]

By the way, you can find GREAT background art in comics too.

Agreed - I frequently refer to http://www.animeclick.it for anime reference - they also have a manga directory. I also lurk on some of the wallpaper chans for HR images. Some very talented people out there (some very sick people out there too but let's ignore that for now).

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions of ArtRage Painter and TV Paint - I have ArtRage on trial download. I have used Painter way back, and its a nice tool.

Time to go play.

Thanks

Rhoel

[Rhoel]

Quick Update: Art Rage Pro trial downloaded first and I have but one short comment - Oh My!

The long one would be its amazing. Simple things done very well, like being able to spin the canvas fast with the mouse, the use of rules and Bezier curve which allow you to trace with a pencil, use as a mask and chalk up to and along the rule edge. And the ability to squeeze paint out of the tube onto the canvas then palette knife mix it, leave knife marks impressions. etc.

This is exactly the tool I have been looking for. You do need to have a pen tablet to get the most out of it but they are cheap enough - even the cheapy 5 * 4 Taiwan I have is more than sufficient.

Very definitely worth the download at www.artrage.com just to play with this - 19.6megs.

With the top end Studio Pro version at $80, this is seriously good value.

Now as a Mod, do I now have to send myself to the Spam Bucket for shameless promotion

Thanks for the link, uddhava.


Rhoel.

[neeters_guy]

Let me put in my recommend for ArtRage as well. Reasonably priced and you can export to psd files with layers and transparency intact. This allows you to use the ASpconv utility to automatically create a bone group with all the layers. Sweet!