Brush Making and Using Tips

[Toontoonz]

Toontoonz, I'm curious, you keep comparing Moho with vector programs for still pictures, but have you ever done animation with these pograms?

Are you asking if I have done animation with vector illustrating programs such as Adobe Illustrator or Expression or others?
The answer is obviously no, because they are not animation programs.
(Rasheed, Which vector drawing programs do you or have you used?)

Moho says it is a vector animation program and allows the importing of vector drawings that are a .ai file.
To quote from the Moho website:
Moho is a 2D vector-based cartoon animation application.
Moho contains a vector-based drawing component, making it suitable for illustration tasks as well.

(Rasheed, have you ever imported an .ai drawing file into Moho? Were you satisfied with the result; i.e. the colors and line shape were the same in the vector drawing program as in Moho?)

When Moho says it is a vector drawing program and will import .ai vector files, one assumes that vector drawings that are interchangeable and true to color and form between other vector drawing and utilizing programs (Illustrator to Flash to Illustrator to Freehand to Flash to XaraX to Expression to Acrylic, etc, etc) will also work in Moho. But they don´t work too good when coming into Moho.

Soooo......with that limitation in mind (and since only very simple and basic .ai files import into Moho) I was hoping to learn how to draw with the vector drawing (and animating) program Moho.
I was thinking that my problems I was having with Moho was just because I was not used to its drawing tools and implementation of them. I have spent many, many hours working with the Moho drawing tools. But it is more than that. Moho can not create vector brush lines like other vector drawing programs.
Moho is not really like any vector illustration program like Expression or Illustrator or any other. All Moho can draw in vector form (if it even is a vector) is a sold line. All the other "brushes" are in reality just image files (not vector files) rearranged and alined and crammed together to form a textured looking line.
The image brush lines Moho makes have lots of problems when they are employed. So all one can really use effectively in Moho for line is a basic solid line.

In the forum:
http://www.lostmarble.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1871
Lost Marble made the comment of:
"Vectors can sometimes be too "clean". "
Well, Lost Marble, could it be that the vectors are "too" clean is because Lost Marble is not providing us good enough vector drawing tools???

Rasheed, have you created an animation using any of Moho´s brushes (other than the solid line)? Could you post them?

[Rasheed]

I wanted to point out that you can't expect an animation program to perform like a drawing program (and vice versa).

Furthermore, after reading Scott McClouds "Understanding Comics", I'm under the impression, that the simplier your animation is, the easier you can convey your message. I haven't fully grasped its implications, but I think it means that the more you concentrate on the essentials (and leave out any distractions), the better.

So, if an outline can just as well work as a solid outline, why should I use anything else than a solid outline? It may look very artistic, but isn't that in reality compensating for the fact that you haven't been thinking enough about your animation?

My 2 cents.

[Nichod]

So, if an outline can just as well work as a solid outline, why should I use anything else than a solid outline? It may look very artistic, but isn't that in reality compensating for the fact that you haven't been thinking enough about your animation?

I think the best explanation as to why you would want anything other then a solid outline is style. What about after you have the essentials and want more then just a solid outline? Thats the issue. And I'm sure in time LM will address the brush issue. Our best option is to explain what we do want, and meanwhile to find work arounds for styles that are currently difficult to achieve with the tools at hand.

I wanted to point out that you can't expect an animation program to perform like a drawing program

Why not? I see what you are saying, but its like saying even though I draw a line with a pencil, I don't expect the line to have the same color, texture, etc if its animated. Drawing tools should work the same whether its a drawing program, or an animation program. And I'd like to point out that while Moho does animate, its core is a drawing program.

Brian

[Nichod]

Having taken a look at this discussion. I decided to do some experimenting on my own. And found that while we can use image textures as outlines and fills, the disappointing factor is that they do not deform with a shapes/lines movement. LM if this is at all possible in a future release I think it would be a nice solution to texturing.

A quick test I did with a texture created externally and used as a map. quicktime ~600k
So dial-up users beware and only look if you are truly interested, as its nothing spectacular.

Brian

[Toontoonz]

I wanted to point out that you can't expect an animation program to perform like a drawing program (and vice versa).
So, if an outline can just as well work as a solid outline, why should I use anything else than a solid outline? It may look very artistic, but isn't that in reality compensating for the fact that you haven't been thinking enough about your animation?
My 2 cents.

Moho is a drawing program and an animation program.
From Moho:
Moho is a 2D vector-based cartoon animation application.
Moho contains a vector-based drawing component, making it suitable for illustration tasks as well.

You state: "you can't expect an animation program to perform like a drawing program".
Reply: Why not? If Moho says it is a vector drawing program to make animations with. Moho allows one to import vector drawings from other programs. I am not importing the animations from other programs, I am importing the drawings.
I can draw an image drawing in Photoshop and it imports into Moho correctly. Are you saying it shouldn´t because Photoshop is not an animation program?
One assumes a file is a file is a file. A .png file in Photoshop looks the same as the .png file in Moho. Not so will vector-type .ai files and Moho.
Rasheed, I have worked with Moho enough to know the limitations of Moho in bringing in vector files from other programs. That is why I was hoping ot duplicate the vector drawing abilities in Moho. Moho can´t do it.

-----------
And regarding your comment on the solid outline (plus a simple fill color). Just because that is all you see animation as, then fine for you.
And I don´t want to draw just a solid line and a simple fill color, I want to create drawings with my own style.

This is my job, I do art and illustration work basically 365 days a year, 12-16 hours a day. Creating art is the sole thing that pays my bills. My clients dictate to me what they want (the style, etc.,etc.). If I can´t provide what they want they go somewhere else.
I try to find new things I can offer my clients at a price they want to pay (which means I have to be more efficient in my work) - such as animation.
I was hoping that Moho would help me create the animations in the style I want, do it efficiently, and not have to use 4 or 5 other programs to get a final product. So far, for me anyway, and my highly demanding clients, Moho is not ready for that.
Moho is a fun program and easy to make simple animations, I recommend it to all people looking to get into animation.
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Your comment: "...but isn't that in reality compensating for the fact that you haven't been thinking enough about your animation?"
Reply: No.
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You say: ...reading Scott McClouds "Understanding Comics", I'm under the impression, that the simplier your animation is, the easier you can convey your message.
It just depends on what you want to do. Using that advice then maybe all animations should be stick figures....???

[Toontoonz]

Further looking at the Moho brush line.

I took my lines I was experimenting with in the previous post and decided to experiment with moving the individual points in the lines to see what effect it would have on the paint brush line image.

(click on graphic for larger view)

There are notes on the graphic to better describe things that happen with the brushes. (If the brush size was a lot smaller, the effects would probably be not as dramatic.)

[Nichod]

I'm curious what LM is using to control the rotation of the brushes. It doesn't seem at all very controlled. You'd think with bones having the ability to deform a image layer so well they'd find a way to duplicate the process with the brush setup.

[Toontoonz]

If you want to use vector brushes, here is a simple working method:
Use Expression (or Acrylic, or whatever it's called now), and strut your funky design stuff...
Export it as a .swf file...
Import swf into Flash. You can then optimise it in a number of ways...
Export optimised drawing as an .ai file...
Import into Moho...
............
The end result is more important than the process.

J - one can just export from Expression or other vector illustration program directly to Moho as an .ai file without having to go through all
those steps detailed. (And one has to buy more programs just to get a different vector line that works in the vector program Moho?).
But I followed your instructions exactly as you outlined above so you can see how it looks and the result.
In the graphic below the first illustration on the left shows the illustration done in Expression. (I left the lines so one can see the
points in each line.)
I exported the illustration from Expression to Flash as an .swf file. (Middle graphic).
Then I exported the illustration from Flash to Moho as a .ai file. (right graphic).
I left the points visible to see the difference in what happens to the graphic in Moho vs. Expression. It went from around 100 points in Expression to over 10,000 points in Moho!
With so many points one can´t use this in Moho.
J - if you think I did this incorrectly please show me how I can do it so that the number of points in the final drawing in Moho is minimized and workable.

(click to see larger view)


Regarding your comment: "The end result is more important than the process." Maybe so, but others would say the process makes the end result.

(Just wondering...If a .png or other image file looked different (shapes off, colors off) in Moho after it was imported from Photoshop would that be acceptable???)

[Toontoonz]

Furthermore, after reading Scott McClouds "Understanding Comics", I'm under the impression, that the simplier your animation is, the easier you can convey your message. I haven't fully grasped its implications, but I think it means that the more you concentrate on the essentials (and leave out any distractions), the better.

Just a comment about the books you are reading. It is all fine to read those books, but please keep in mind they are for the most part based on animation done in the 1930s, 1940s, 1950s, 1960s, etc....before there were computers.
Back then they drew and painted by hand on acetate cells.
The lines and colors in animations then were simple basically because of economics (it is cheaper and quicker to paint a simple solid line and simple solid color) and it was not possible (with hundreds of animators) to maintain a more ornate or imaginative style over large animation projects. So everything was simple line and simple fill color.
With computers all that has changed.
Why can´t one make new wild, imaginitive animation that takes full advantage of the endless possibilities of computer graphics together with the artist´s imagination? Who says animation always has to be simple, black outline and solid fill???

Yes, I know drawing is drawing and there are x-steps to a walk cycle, but if those genius animators of the 30s and 40s and 50s had the computer tools we have today you would be amazed at how quickly the solid line and solid fill animation would have disappeared.

(And, just a thought, when the book author refers to simple, could it be he is not necessarily meaning just the drawing style, but also the script, the idea, the ending, the characters personalities, the location,etc.???)

I just can´t imagine George Lucas when making his last Star Wars movie reading old books on how they made the special effects in science fiction movies in the 1940s - 1970s....
What´s that saying? An artist makes the rules, he/she doesn´t follow the (old) rules...

[Toontoonz]

Fun with Moho Brushes!

One interesting thing one can do with Moho image brushes (since all it does is repeat the image) is animate things that grow.
Here is a quicky animation of a tree brush I made. I drew a brush that looked like the top of a fir tree, put it in the Moho brushes file then drew some lines with the brush. (brush jitter angle 0, spacing 75%, align to the curve, taper at end of brush).
Then along the 72 frame timeline I moved the points in the lines up.
The result - it looks like the trees in the forest are growing.
I could see one could use this technique for other things that grow.
Here is the video - 0.63Mb. 3 seconds long.
Growing Fir Trees.mov

[Rasheed]

You say: ...reading Scott McClouds "Understanding Comics", I'm under the impression, that the simplier your animation is, the easier you can convey your message.
It just depends on what you want to do. Using that advice then maybe all animations should be stick figures....???

Not necessarily, see Dick Bruna's work (Dutch site here). I've seen a couple of interviews/programs on Dick Bruna in which he told that drawing such simple drawings is very hard indeed. He starts to draw and redraw, leaving out everything unnecessary and when he's confident, he puts every line down with precision and concentration.

Needless to say Dick Bruna is very popular in Japan (and the Netherlands; he's Dutch). His messages are simple, yet powerful, dealing with essential things in life and telling them to children. But adults appreciate his work as well. See his official website for more details.

[Toontoonz]

More Fun with Moho Brushes!

Since the Moho brushes are not what I thought they were, I figured there must be a better way to use the brushes in Moho, so....

Here it is the Dancing Robotic Can art!
Watch the Can (an image, not a vector drawing) move and grow arms and legs (which were created with a single brush I made to use in Moho).
0.69Mb, 3 seconds long.


Click link here!
Dancing Robotic Can Art.mov

[Toontoonz]

Rasheed - that is the great thing about art, there is no right way to do it.
One could read a 1,000 books about a 1,000 different artists and each has their own way to do it.

When I was a teenager I used to go to the library and look through all the books about artists. After a while I realized that there is no right or wrong way to make art. And instead of spending my time looking at art in books I would better off spending my time drawing, painting, being creative to develop my own style of art.

One of the worst things that can happen to a new artist is that somebody says, "Oh, your art looks like artist (fill in the blank)" or "Your animation looks like Scott McLouds or Dick Brunas" or any of the other animators you have read about. That is bad news for any artist, no matter what they create.

Those artists and animators you reference were successful in what they did when they did it. Good for them. But styles change, tastes change. Each artist should find what works for them.
My motto: Spend more time drawing and animating, less time reading art and animation books.

[jorgy]

Furthermore, after reading Scott McClouds "Understanding Comics", I'm under the impression, that the simplier your animation is, the easier you can convey your message. I haven't fully grasped its implications, but I think it means that the more you concentrate on the essentials (and leave out any distractions), the better.

So, if an outline can just as well work as a solid outline, why should I use anything else than a solid outline? It may look very artistic, but isn't that in reality compensating for the fact that you haven't been thinking enough about your animation?

My 2 cents.

Rasheed,

As others have mentioned there are many different kinds of animations and drawings, and there doesn't have to be a hard and fast line between animation and drawing.

Here is one of my favorite animations from a guy named Charlie Canfield (someone had previously posted this link on the forum here). This wasn't done with moho, but besides cute characters and a charming story, I really like the "look" of the animation.

http://www.charliecanfield.com/chopin/hideandseek.mov

I believe that this type of animation is possible with moho, using PNG images attached to bones.

I'm a big fan of the Scott McCloud book too, and I think that the point he's trying to make is that there are different types of detail levels. This is impacted by the artists style, as well as the type of animation chosen.

Look at South Park - the animation is rudamentary at best. However, it is still possible to get a wide variety of emotions across - it doesn't have to be Golden Age of Disney quality to appeal to audiences. In this case, I would argue that the crude animation adds to the South Park atmosphere. Now, is that a style that I want to emulate? Not particularly. But it just means to me that simple stick figures can get emotions across too.

On page 31 of "Understanding Comics" he talks about how as the level of detail decreases, the number of people who can see themselves in a character increases. Does that mean that simpler is better? It depends on style. What are you trying to get across? What audience do you want to appeal to? Just like the impressionists have a completely different approach than the post-moderns, animation like South Park will have a completely different approach than Beauty and the Beast, both equally valid to me. It just depends on what you want to get across, from a story, character, and emotional point of view.

Just my humble opinion,

jorgy

[Toontoonz]

Has anyone ever created an animation in Moho that uses a non-solid line brush?

I have only been using Moho since around March 2005.
This past week I decided to try again to use the drawing tools in Moho - in particular the brush shapes. (I usually do my vector drawing in Adobe Illustrator and import to Moho. But that has problems.)
In the previous posts here (above) I detailed just a few of the situations I came across using Moho brushes.

I have searched the Moho gallery to see if in the history of Moho if there has been any animations done with a Moho non-solid line brush. (The brushes as detailed in Tutorial 2.5.)
I could not find any.
I would like to see some Moho animations done with the special brush shape(s).
Has anybody ever made any animations created using the Moho brush shapes? Could you post them?
Does anybody have any links to any animations created using the Moho brush shapes?
Does anybody even use the Moho brushes? If not, why not?