A back-to-front question about layer ordering

[Mohlar]

A thought occurred to me this morning as I was reading through the tutorials that come with ASP.

I know that (as yet) the official Help files have not been updated to include walkthroughs of the changes to layers and layer ordering as a result of the 5.6 update..... and that made me wonder which, if any, of the existing tutorials are now redundant or, worse, misleading?

[funksmaname]

Not much else has changed... and i dont think there's anythign in there about an alternative workflow for switching order? (might be wrong its been a while sincei did them!)... so i imagine its more stuff thats omitted completely rather than redundant or misleading.

Either way, it will give any new user a solid grouding to then just update their workflow once they grip the basics.

[Gnaws]

*sigh*

I've looked thru: the tutorials, Google, in the tea leaves and I can't figure out how to animate layers in 5.6. I assume the layers to be animated have to be placed in a group first, with Depth Sorting engaged? Maybe not.

I'm trying to make a character whose arm swings behind him and then in front of him. Thought perhaps the animated layer function would be handy.

[mkelley]

There's not much too it. Yes, the layers need to be in a group (or bone) layer. And, yes, the starting order should be specified on frame 0. But no depth sorting or other shenanigans are required.

Otherwise you just move the layer to wherever you want at whatever frame (other than 0) you want -- it will then be animated. Good for switching arm movements (I do it all the time).

[Gnaws]

I started over with simple shapes and (as you said) the layers move/ animate great.

But this set up isn't working for me.



Eventually I'd like to be able to make the forearm swing in front of the torso. Thought maybe if I made the parent group a bone group then layer the two parts of the bone I could get my plan to work. ?

[mkelley]

I can't speak to your setup (and I don't have the time to try and duplicate) but what works for me is this:

All my bones are on the same layer -- much easier to work with. Layers are offset (natch) and then moved using bone offset tool at frame 0 to align. Then I simply reorder the layers as I wish (moving the arm layer in front of the torso layer, for example).

I'm sure if/when Vern reads this he will have some words of wisdom about multiple bone layers and layer ordering.

[Gnaws]

Thanks, mkelley. The description of your rig is exactly what I was/am trying to replicate. My posted image doesn't reflect this but I tried earlier to have my bones on one layer and my vectors on other (animatable?) layers. Just couldn't get it to work.

I'm sure..Vern...will have some words of wisdom.

HAHAHA!! Looking forward to it.

Thanks!!

== edit ===
mkelley - took your advice and created a new rig. All bones on one layer & vectors on separate layers. It works great!!! Amazing! Thanks again.

[heyvern]

My posted image doesn't reflect this but I tried earlier to have my bones on one layer and my vectors on other (animatable?) layers. Just couldn't get it to work.

Animated layer ordering works INSIDE each group or bone layer. You can't drag a layer outside the group at all past frame 0. It just won't let you.

The image you posted looks correct. It appears that it should work fine if the WHOLE arm layer is to have "animated ordering" not just the forearm. If the forearm layer is inside the arm layer you can't change its order.

Like mkelly I like to have all my "major bones" on one layer but I always have a separate bone layer inside the main skeleton for the head. I do this all the time so the hands and arms can go behind and in front of the head. So animating bone layers inside bone layers is possible.

If that "arm" layer is the WHOLE arm INCLUDING the forearm then no... won't work. You can't animate the forearm layer INSIDE the other bone layer. You would need two bone layers, forearm, bicep. This would be silly of course. Putting major bones on one layer is the best way to go. But for heads and hands that would work. I do this with hand layers as well. Hands are on separate bone layers because I like to have finger bones separate from the main skeleton. Easier to select bones with a complicated rig.

mkelley - took your advice and created a new rig. All bones on one layer & vectors on separate layers. It works great!!! Amazing! Thanks again.

And if you put a bone layer INSIDE that bone layer the animated order still works as it should right?

No great words of wisdom. It works for me.

Remember, layer animation only works INSIDE EACH GROUP. You can't drag a layer outside of any group past frame 0. If you reorder layers on frame 0 and you have layer order keys those frame 0 changes will not be reflected later in the animation... or they will act unexpectedly.

If you delete or add layers to a group with layer order keys it will change the layer ordering animatiion. I don't know yet exactly how layer ordering works, but I assume it is based on ID not name. So deleting and adding layers could change the IDs of some or all the layers causing the layer order to change unexpectedly.

-vern

[Gnaws]

Thanks as always for your time and detailed explanation, Vern.

Attached is my new rig that seemed to work. Tho I don't know if it conforms exactly to what you explained. The "fore arm" layer is the one I'm animating (frame #15) -- It contains 2 vector layers. I'm trying to make the entire forearm move in front of the body, instead of just the hand. Maybe I'm taking the long way around the barn?

[heyvern]

Yes, that will work. I didn't know about the switch layer. You have to think of the switch layer as a single layer. This set up is good and makes sense. the only drawback is that you can only use "layer binding" for the arm.

However the "forearm" switch layer can ONLY contain the forearm. The bicep and hand MUST be in separate layers outside of that switch. The switch is one layer. The whole thing changes layer order as a unit.

When I have a setup like this (without a switch for the for the arm of course) I can have a continuous spline for the WHOLE arm and still have the forearm on a sepearate layer. I just remove shapes. I start with one arm that is all one piece and bends smoothly using bone strength. I duplicate this arm and delete the forearm shape on one, and the bicep shape on the other. The two together have the same points and appear to move as a "one" layer but I can change the order of the forearm.

Obviously with a switch layer for the arm this is not possible to do. In order to move the forearm over the body it must be in the main skeleton layer.

I have no ideas about how to make that work yet. Animated layer order is still restrictive in many situations since you can't animate outside of the group.

A possible option would be a mask that matches the forearm motion (mesh instance script) and that mask layer would allow the forearm to appear above or below the body. This mask layer would have animated layer order and the arm layer would stay where ever you want it to. It would never have to change order. Only the mask layer would... uh... same problems come to mind regarding switch layers though.

I think what you have is probably the best setup for your situation. If I think of something else I will let know.

-vern

[chucky]

sometimes I make four arms
Arm left front and Arm left back, you get the idea.
or Forearm left front and Forearm left back, you get the idea.
Then the arms both front and back can have actions that increase the perspective/ foreshortening as they tilt forward or away.

[slowtiger]

Gnaws: aside from the layer ordering problem - I like the style of your character, or at least the parts you showed us yet. Are you heading in the direction of "Cortoon Modern"?

[Gnaws]

Gnaws: I like the style of your character... Are you heading in the direction of "Cortoon Modern"?

Thanks ST. I guess it is Cartoon Modern-ish.