This may probably be the wrong place to post this questions. If so, I apologize.<BR>
This question is not specific to Anime Studio.<BR>
I have a client that really likes the "retro" cartoon style (50's and 60's - like the art work from "The Incredibles", the "Esurance" commercials, etc). However, he wants to avoid the stereotypes and ethnic looking characters (think of how "Frozone" in the Incredibles looks). This is exactly the thing he wants me to avoid. The problem is, so far all "retro" cartoon images I've looked at for insipiration seem to push the ethnic stereotypes!!<BR>
Does anyone have a suggestions of another place to look online that has "retro" cartoon work but avoids the ethnic angle (or another place to post this question)? Or maybe this is just how it is. Maybe this is how the characters read so quickly??
Avoiding the overly ethnic look in retro cartoon style
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The question is how far your client wants to out-level all individuality of your characters, and how much of a problem "ethnicity" may be. I think the problem is really non-existant, but depends on which stories shall be told in which setting. Could you give some information about that?
Most cartoon program uses a cast of characters all made from the same mold: same heads, same faces, same size. Individuality as far as the script calls for is done via different clothing colours (but same clothing) and maybe different hairstyles. Add some props and you're done. If you in such a setting just use different skin colours people will react to "ethnicity".
For a good overview of what's "retro" is all about I recommend the book "Cartoon Modern" by Amid Amidi. "The Incredibles" is not so much about retro animation but retro comic style.
The more stylish and abstract the characters get, the more difficult it might become to give them individuality. I think if you already design a cast of great diversity, like big/bigger/small/tiny characters, bold ones, thin ones, old and young, those with hair and those without, and all dressed differently and having different occupations - then anything "ethnical" will most likely go unnoticed. In the end it all boils down to avoid some really simplicistic details: big lips in a black face and such.
Most cartoon program uses a cast of characters all made from the same mold: same heads, same faces, same size. Individuality as far as the script calls for is done via different clothing colours (but same clothing) and maybe different hairstyles. Add some props and you're done. If you in such a setting just use different skin colours people will react to "ethnicity".
For a good overview of what's "retro" is all about I recommend the book "Cartoon Modern" by Amid Amidi. "The Incredibles" is not so much about retro animation but retro comic style.
The more stylish and abstract the characters get, the more difficult it might become to give them individuality. I think if you already design a cast of great diversity, like big/bigger/small/tiny characters, bold ones, thin ones, old and young, those with hair and those without, and all dressed differently and having different occupations - then anything "ethnical" will most likely go unnoticed. In the end it all boils down to avoid some really simplicistic details: big lips in a black face and such.
There's a HUGE difference between a stylized "retro" characterization and an OFFENSE stylization. I'm not sure I understand the problem.
Everyone has features that when exaggerated emphasize their personality and their distinctive look. Frozone was NOT a negative "ethnic" exaggeration in my opinion. I was not aware that anyone felt that way. His character had a specific ethnic background and his features reflected those traits and the back story of his character. Just like Bob was "heavy set" or Elastigirl had large hips.
If everyone looked exactly the same animation would be very boring.
I did a series of caricatures of some friends (that's me on the right).
We have a sort of computer club and meet every few months. My goal was to exaggerate their features in a POSITIVE way. I did the same for all of them regardless of ethnicity. I looked at them as cartoons and exaggerated what I thought was a defining trait. Cartoon characters are exactly that, exaggerations of normal human features.
Prince Charles and Barack Obama have... slightly large prominent ears, cartoonists exaggerate that trait, some negatively others not so much. To avoid "ethnicity" in the characters is to strip them of what makes them unique and stand out from each other. I think this requirement to avoid ethnic traits is... very odd... to be perfectly honest I think the request is... worse than what they are trying to avoid. This is just my opinion.
Any character type can be exaggerated in a "negative" way regardless of ethnicity. These NEGATIVE stereotypes can be avoided, but we all still have traits that make us unique... or a character design.
-vern
Everyone has features that when exaggerated emphasize their personality and their distinctive look. Frozone was NOT a negative "ethnic" exaggeration in my opinion. I was not aware that anyone felt that way. His character had a specific ethnic background and his features reflected those traits and the back story of his character. Just like Bob was "heavy set" or Elastigirl had large hips.
If everyone looked exactly the same animation would be very boring.
I did a series of caricatures of some friends (that's me on the right).
We have a sort of computer club and meet every few months. My goal was to exaggerate their features in a POSITIVE way. I did the same for all of them regardless of ethnicity. I looked at them as cartoons and exaggerated what I thought was a defining trait. Cartoon characters are exactly that, exaggerations of normal human features.
Prince Charles and Barack Obama have... slightly large prominent ears, cartoonists exaggerate that trait, some negatively others not so much. To avoid "ethnicity" in the characters is to strip them of what makes them unique and stand out from each other. I think this requirement to avoid ethnic traits is... very odd... to be perfectly honest I think the request is... worse than what they are trying to avoid. This is just my opinion.
Any character type can be exaggerated in a "negative" way regardless of ethnicity. These NEGATIVE stereotypes can be avoided, but we all still have traits that make us unique... or a character design.
-vern
Sorry, I didn't mean to say that the client felt that these were "negative". It was a comment he made about avoiding that.
I think I have a direction to go.
I should have thought on the client's words a little longer before posting here.
I've been looking over some of Christopher Hart's stuff in his book "Cartoon Cool" and I think I have a direction to go.
I think I have a direction to go.
I should have thought on the client's words a little longer before posting here.
I've been looking over some of Christopher Hart's stuff in his book "Cartoon Cool" and I think I have a direction to go.
pc in art
It's those differences that makes us unique- and those differences are not bad. I had a black art teacher, and when discussing ethnic features for art, of course all us white guys would describe black folks as having big lips and noses, and he would correct us by saying black folks have "thick" lips. And Asian folks have smaller eyes- and it's alright for art to imitate life.
What I really don't like is when you watch some anime and the black guys look just like the white guys but with dark skin. And there are hardly ever asian looking characters in cartoons predominately made by Asians.
I really liked watching the anime Steam Boy, because the characters in that cartoon look British/European, Indian, Arabic, etc., and they still held true to the anime style. It's like liberating anime from the one face fits all mold.
What I really don't like is when you watch some anime and the black guys look just like the white guys but with dark skin. And there are hardly ever asian looking characters in cartoons predominately made by Asians.
I really liked watching the anime Steam Boy, because the characters in that cartoon look British/European, Indian, Arabic, etc., and they still held true to the anime style. It's like liberating anime from the one face fits all mold.
I concur wholeheartedly with Vern and speaking as a Ranga, a member of that internationally and legally maligned minority, the redheads ( bloodnuts, ginges, carrot tops, you know) I would be very disappointed if I was portrayed as having brown hair and no freckles.
Vive la differance!
Vive la differance!
Last edited by chucky on Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Side note, I have actually been in a similar position where a client wanted to be portrayed in an ad - using anime BTW (can't publish here unfortunately)
He wanted his ethnicity watered down a little, but by following the same theory as Vern discussed, his caricaturisation was easy and he was very happy with his appearance.
I think his motivation for asking for this was out of trepidation of the possible negative portrayals as he may have seen elsewhere.Also being that this was advertising and we are in Australia ( we do have a few rednecks round these parts, yeaharr) he was probably being pragmatic in regards to his business. He actually had nothing to fear, in the end he came out looking Indian without a hint of negative vibe , but more importantly he looked like himself, save for a slightly diminished belly.
I would have been proud.
Incidentally that too had the retro style.
I think if you are truly honest and good intentioned with your drawings the goodness will float to the top.
Incidentally I'd love to know if it was the way Frozone looked that was a problem or the way he was written? I think there may be a few issues there,( Fro -zone?wtf?)
Still the incredibles LOOKED fantastic, even the typically evil bully and wanna be bloodnut......at least he wasn't English too , you Septics love to have an English bad guy Haaahaaar
Nice pickies Vern!
He wanted his ethnicity watered down a little, but by following the same theory as Vern discussed, his caricaturisation was easy and he was very happy with his appearance.
I think his motivation for asking for this was out of trepidation of the possible negative portrayals as he may have seen elsewhere.Also being that this was advertising and we are in Australia ( we do have a few rednecks round these parts, yeaharr) he was probably being pragmatic in regards to his business. He actually had nothing to fear, in the end he came out looking Indian without a hint of negative vibe , but more importantly he looked like himself, save for a slightly diminished belly.
I would have been proud.Incidentally that too had the retro style.
I think if you are truly honest and good intentioned with your drawings the goodness will float to the top.
Incidentally I'd love to know if it was the way Frozone looked that was a problem or the way he was written? I think there may be a few issues there,( Fro -zone?wtf?)
Still the incredibles LOOKED fantastic, even the typically evil bully and wanna be bloodnut......at least he wasn't English too , you Septics love to have an English bad guy Haaahaaar
Nice pickies Vern!
The client wasn't sure what he wanted
Well, just a little follow up.
The client was looking over some older sketches I did of characters for another defunct LGBT project that did not use the "retro style" and he loved them. So I was able to sell him on the older work
The client was looking over some older sketches I did of characters for another defunct LGBT project that did not use the "retro style" and he loved them. So I was able to sell him on the older work
I'm shocked! Your kind give me the creeps. I always cross to the other side of the street when I see one of you walking towards me... that flaming red hair is a sign of the devil!chucky wrote:I concur wholeheartedly with Vern and speaking as a Ranga, a member of that internationally and legally maligned minority, the redheads ( bloodnuts, ginges, carrot tops, you know) I would be very disappointed if I was portrayed as having brown hair and no freckles.
Vive la differance!
However... I do like red hair and freckles on a beautiful woman. So cute. I'll burn in heck anyway, so hanging out with devil haired Ranga women can't be do any more harm.
-vern
Ha , no I'm not Nk haha, strangely though she went to the sister school of my school and we used to attend the same water polo activity.
I don't remember her ever getting in the water it was easy to tell if she did , there were only two girls there, she just sat on the pier with her better looking (girl)friend and pretended not to perve at the other non ranga blokes.
I don't remember if I ever spoke to her, I've got to say she wasn't very charming. Small world.
I don't remember her ever getting in the water it was easy to tell if she did , there were only two girls there, she just sat on the pier with her better looking (girl)friend and pretended not to perve at the other non ranga blokes.
I don't remember if I ever spoke to her, I've got to say she wasn't very charming. Small world.
Nicole Kidman had a "better looking friend"? Holy crap.chucky wrote:she just sat on the pier with her better looking (girl)friend
First time I saw her or Sam Neil was in "Dead Calm". Fantastic movie. I predicted she'd be a HUGE star after seeing that. You guys down under just keep popping out hotties with talent. Must be all the sun and water.
We however, produce the wackos that marry them.
-vern