Hi everyone, I've been reading through the posts lately, I'm in a middle of a series of 12 kids show for Canadian Television, and I have some issues/questions about Anime Studio.. and where to go from there ..
here goes.
I saw that the first sign of new release dated back from early 2007 by Fahim asking for a wishlist... I know no one can say anything, but do we have something about to come up.. here's why..
- I urgently need a render farm.(1 show per week).
- automatic reconnecting of images when the scenes changes computer
- ability to import a hole scene in one shot, instead of group of layer by group of layer...
and so on... All requests made I think by users in the wishlist.
Unfortunately, the only software capable of doing that now is Toon Boom... I don't want to change software, but I have to admit that since nothing seems to be happening, My eyes are starting to seek elsewhere..
any hope?
thx.
Marc.
New user getting to par
Moderators: Víctor Paredes, Belgarath, slowtiger
There is no render farm. You need a copy of AS for each computer. There is however a command line interface for rendering, it is part of the batch rendering. Someone on the forum has been working on something I believe called "Moren" that uses this command line rendering. Still it is for one computer.
No "automatic reconnecting of images"... but, if you create the files CORRECTLY ahead of time there is no need. The external image links are based on the location of the image files. Make sure that the AS files are ABOVE the image files in the folder structure. Fro instance put all AS files in a main project folder, have the images in an images folder in that folder and no "relinking" is required when moving to a new computer.
Importing a "whole scene" is another case of preparing ahead of time for what you need. AS only imports the top level of any particular file. Put the whole scene into another group folder. Then you can import the whole thing into another file. In some cases it might be simpler to just open that file and save as. Another user on the forum has created a Windows only application for managing AS files that might be useful. It is in the "Other Software" section of the forum. I believe it is called "Scene Selector".
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You should have tried out the demos of both applications and discovered these limitations before commiting to either one. If you truly like using AS and have resources committed to it then you find ways around these problems (as demonstrated by the solutions listed above). If you can't or it's prohibitive to your production work flow then go ahead and buy ToonBoom. You will find they BOTH have limitations (ToonBoom's main limitation is PRICE from my point of view).
-vern
No "automatic reconnecting of images"... but, if you create the files CORRECTLY ahead of time there is no need. The external image links are based on the location of the image files. Make sure that the AS files are ABOVE the image files in the folder structure. Fro instance put all AS files in a main project folder, have the images in an images folder in that folder and no "relinking" is required when moving to a new computer.
Importing a "whole scene" is another case of preparing ahead of time for what you need. AS only imports the top level of any particular file. Put the whole scene into another group folder. Then you can import the whole thing into another file. In some cases it might be simpler to just open that file and save as. Another user on the forum has created a Windows only application for managing AS files that might be useful. It is in the "Other Software" section of the forum. I believe it is called "Scene Selector".
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You do what you have to do to get something done. Don't make idle threats about switching software. Those are VERY annoying, and totally pointless. If you decide to switch then just switch. If you were serious you would just do it. No one on the forum cares if you buy ToonBoom. Many people here own both. Smith Micro is working on a new version of AS and is not going to panic just because you say you are going to use some other program.I don't want to change software, but I have to admit that since nothing seems to be happening, My eyes are starting to seek elsewhere..
You should have tried out the demos of both applications and discovered these limitations before commiting to either one. If you truly like using AS and have resources committed to it then you find ways around these problems (as demonstrated by the solutions listed above). If you can't or it's prohibitive to your production work flow then go ahead and buy ToonBoom. You will find they BOTH have limitations (ToonBoom's main limitation is PRICE from my point of view).
-vern
Hey Vern..
I see that people's skill is not your strong points...
Anyhow... I thought it was obvious, but I'll still make some precision...
When in a middle of a production, the idea is not to change software, and the intentions were not to try to threat anybody (people aren't always trying to be arrogant or aggressive in their comments), but rather to see if anyone was aware (Mike for example) that in a month or 2 something would come up maybe with those features... The whole idea is NOT to go and buy an expensive software then realize a month later, this one, already paid for, comes out with those feature...
In every software, you don't really find the weak points while playing around with demo versions, but rather when using it on the field.
For example, did you know that Papagayo can't do 59.94 fps mmmmm...
well, i didn't see that while playing around with it, but rather when the job that came up was HD 1920 x 1080, 59.94...
And for the solutions, I'll give them a try... Strangely, if what you say is true, about reconnecting external files, then I'll check where I went wrong, because the folder was copied in its whole...
Did you try the Photoshop script that exports layers to Anime Studio format... those are the ones not reconnecting...
Also for importing files, yes I did realize that putting the whole thing in a folder solved the issue. I was thinking more of multiple selections, maybe in a future release, But what I am still trying to achieve is have my new scene (camera and props) start at frame 1, exactly where I left off, lets say on frame 4000... still not sure about that...
In the perfect world, it's fun to plan ahead...but in the real production life, things gets changed on the fly, scenes are added, etc. But, yes I'll keep in mind to plan ahead
Marc[/quote]
I see that people's skill is not your strong points...
Anyhow... I thought it was obvious, but I'll still make some precision...
When in a middle of a production, the idea is not to change software, and the intentions were not to try to threat anybody (people aren't always trying to be arrogant or aggressive in their comments), but rather to see if anyone was aware (Mike for example) that in a month or 2 something would come up maybe with those features... The whole idea is NOT to go and buy an expensive software then realize a month later, this one, already paid for, comes out with those feature...
In every software, you don't really find the weak points while playing around with demo versions, but rather when using it on the field.
For example, did you know that Papagayo can't do 59.94 fps mmmmm...
well, i didn't see that while playing around with it, but rather when the job that came up was HD 1920 x 1080, 59.94...
And for the solutions, I'll give them a try... Strangely, if what you say is true, about reconnecting external files, then I'll check where I went wrong, because the folder was copied in its whole...
Did you try the Photoshop script that exports layers to Anime Studio format... those are the ones not reconnecting...
Also for importing files, yes I did realize that putting the whole thing in a folder solved the issue. I was thinking more of multiple selections, maybe in a future release, But what I am still trying to achieve is have my new scene (camera and props) start at frame 1, exactly where I left off, lets say on frame 4000... still not sure about that...
In the perfect world, it's fun to plan ahead...but in the real production life, things gets changed on the fly, scenes are added, etc. But, yes I'll keep in mind to plan ahead
Marc[/quote]
As someone who's been in your shoes let me tell you from my perspective I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for something to help your pipeline. I do understand asking if there is a new version on the horizon, and whether it will have certain features that might help, but truly (and realistically) no one should *EVER* try to plan a production pipeline on future features of any software.
To put it another way, it would be suicidal (at least from a business standpoint) to choose any software on the basis of what it MIGHT do. Let's say that ToonBoom announces that in September they will have some new feature that is exactly what you want. Would you in your right mind buy that software on that promise? If so... you haven't been in the business very long.
Just like you shouldn't marry someone on the hopes that someday they will turn into the person you want, you shouldn't marry yourself to software on the basis of what it might do in the future. Same goes for sticking with software -- if you need those features you mentioned then by all means find some software that does it... TODAY. Not anything that might possibly do it sometime in the future. That's just insanity and the quickest way to go out of business.
So what it really boils down to is whether those features are a deal breaker to you. You will need to weigh starting over with another software package (which might lack other things you need) versus something you might have experience with. If you have no experience with AS (or very little) then there's not too much penalty in switching.
The only other observation I'd make (and probably out of line but that's me) is that 2D animation renders lightning quick compared to 3D. We are doing a weekly half-hour (well, 22 minutes) show and can render it completely out in less than a day on even one machine. While I do have a render farm (for my 3D work) I haven't felt any kind of need to even think about using it. I suppose if you are doing something far more ambitious (say a two hour movie every week) or perhaps you aren't using vector art (which renders much faster than bitmap stuff in AS) then I can see wanting network rendering, but other than that I just don't see it (with my five machine 3D render farm I can't even come close to the speed of one machine rendering in AS -- I'm still lucky if I can get 5 minutes a day out of it. Then again, the scenes are insanely more complicated).
To put it another way, it would be suicidal (at least from a business standpoint) to choose any software on the basis of what it MIGHT do. Let's say that ToonBoom announces that in September they will have some new feature that is exactly what you want. Would you in your right mind buy that software on that promise? If so... you haven't been in the business very long.
Just like you shouldn't marry someone on the hopes that someday they will turn into the person you want, you shouldn't marry yourself to software on the basis of what it might do in the future. Same goes for sticking with software -- if you need those features you mentioned then by all means find some software that does it... TODAY. Not anything that might possibly do it sometime in the future. That's just insanity and the quickest way to go out of business.
So what it really boils down to is whether those features are a deal breaker to you. You will need to weigh starting over with another software package (which might lack other things you need) versus something you might have experience with. If you have no experience with AS (or very little) then there's not too much penalty in switching.
The only other observation I'd make (and probably out of line but that's me) is that 2D animation renders lightning quick compared to 3D. We are doing a weekly half-hour (well, 22 minutes) show and can render it completely out in less than a day on even one machine. While I do have a render farm (for my 3D work) I haven't felt any kind of need to even think about using it. I suppose if you are doing something far more ambitious (say a two hour movie every week) or perhaps you aren't using vector art (which renders much faster than bitmap stuff in AS) then I can see wanting network rendering, but other than that I just don't see it (with my five machine 3D render farm I can't even come close to the speed of one machine rendering in AS -- I'm still lucky if I can get 5 minutes a day out of it. Then again, the scenes are insanely more complicated).
Mkelley.
Right on.. no one plans a production on future release, BUT, no one likes to through money out the door, just because the grass seems greener on the other side... And after this 12 episodes, another 24 will be in the making, so I think the timing is right to see if I continue this path..
Unfortunately, I don't have time to really sit down and start crunching on other animation softwares to see if indeed they are better or not...
in a 720 x 480 world, your right, it's fast, but in 1920 x 1080 @ 60 fps... I would like to have this extra power...
Right on.. no one plans a production on future release, BUT, no one likes to through money out the door, just because the grass seems greener on the other side... And after this 12 episodes, another 24 will be in the making, so I think the timing is right to see if I continue this path..
Unfortunately, I don't have time to really sit down and start crunching on other animation softwares to see if indeed they are better or not...
in a 720 x 480 world, your right, it's fast, but in 1920 x 1080 @ 60 fps... I would like to have this extra power...
I am not here to judge the broadcaster, I received their specs, called them up, and they are broadcasting HD, 1920 x 1080 and yes... @ 59.94fps... This is standard for all the new production they are receiving.. Maybe they are the first to broadcast in that format and I am the unfortunate one.. but I have to respect these specs.slowtiger wrote:Who in all world tries to animate in 59.94 fps??? This sounds like complete overkill to me, especially since there's neither cinema nor broadcast who could possibly show it at that rate.
Just for grins and chuckles I did an experimental render at your resolution and FPS -- on my slowest machine I was able to get about 10 seconds rendered in ten minutes.
Now, that's definitely slower (by a factor of about eight) than rendering in 940 x 580 (which is our normal resolution) but still lightning fast compared to our 3D work (in which a single frame can take several minutes.
Even if you're doing a half hour (22 minutes in U.S. with commercials) show you ought to be able to render in a single day at that resolution and FPS. And if it's a matter of multiple shows (let's say you need to deliver your 13 episodes in weeks rather than months) you could devote a separate machine to each show and *still* get it done in a day or two (depending on how many machines you can devote and how many shows).
If someone put a gun to my head even with my modest setup I could render at your specs four or five shows a day -- I'd just have one show on each machine. This seems to me to be the most practical approach in the absence of a net render solution.
The other way, of course, would be to split the scenes up per machine. I've actually done this even with our 3D net render farm at times (which can be a PITA if some expensive plugins you need don't come with a net module, as some don't). In those cases we just used some good spreadsheet software to keep track of what machine was doing what, and since we were rendering to net drives (which you can do with AS) it all ended up in the same place anyway.
Having worked with net farms and without them I actually prefer to do it on a single machine -- no matter how good the software is it can be temperamental, and nothing is more disappointing then to come in in the morning and find that render job you were counting on aborted sometime in the middle of the night due to some network error (happened to us more often than I like to think about).
Now, that's definitely slower (by a factor of about eight) than rendering in 940 x 580 (which is our normal resolution) but still lightning fast compared to our 3D work (in which a single frame can take several minutes.
Even if you're doing a half hour (22 minutes in U.S. with commercials) show you ought to be able to render in a single day at that resolution and FPS. And if it's a matter of multiple shows (let's say you need to deliver your 13 episodes in weeks rather than months) you could devote a separate machine to each show and *still* get it done in a day or two (depending on how many machines you can devote and how many shows).
If someone put a gun to my head even with my modest setup I could render at your specs four or five shows a day -- I'd just have one show on each machine. This seems to me to be the most practical approach in the absence of a net render solution.
The other way, of course, would be to split the scenes up per machine. I've actually done this even with our 3D net render farm at times (which can be a PITA if some expensive plugins you need don't come with a net module, as some don't). In those cases we just used some good spreadsheet software to keep track of what machine was doing what, and since we were rendering to net drives (which you can do with AS) it all ended up in the same place anyway.
Having worked with net farms and without them I actually prefer to do it on a single machine -- no matter how good the software is it can be temperamental, and nothing is more disappointing then to come in in the morning and find that render job you were counting on aborted sometime in the middle of the night due to some network error (happened to us more often than I like to think about).
yes.. That's about right for rendering times... I find that using the shadow effect to create the outline really slows it down... But that's the effect the are looking for... and nothing compared to 3D..
Strange... I was only able to render a 2 minutes opening (5400 frames) in 24 hours, no graphics, just vectors, 6 characters... Definitely less than a whole show... And it's on a iMac 2.4ghz, 2gigs ram...
What settings in the rendering did you use? Antialiasing, Shape effects and layer effects...
When I took those off + rendered at half the size, it took about 2 hours for the whole show...
I have about 10 scenes, with sub scenes (b-roll)... I think my best bet will be to separate my scenes to the other computers...
Strange... I was only able to render a 2 minutes opening (5400 frames) in 24 hours, no graphics, just vectors, 6 characters... Definitely less than a whole show... And it's on a iMac 2.4ghz, 2gigs ram...
What settings in the rendering did you use? Antialiasing, Shape effects and layer effects...
When I took those off + rendered at half the size, it took about 2 hours for the whole show...
I have about 10 scenes, with sub scenes (b-roll)... I think my best bet will be to separate my scenes to the other computers...
First off Papagayo is free. It is open source and is NOT part of Anime Studio. It is not supported or owned by Smith Micro.markyyy wrote:... did you know that Papagayo can't do 59.94 fps mmmmm...
well, i didn't see that while playing around with it, but rather when the job that came up was HD 1920 x 1080, 59.94...
However there is an easy fix. Use a text editor with regex and change the values in the DAT file from whatever it is to whatever you need. I did that recently when one of my files was 30fps and I needed 24fps. I used jEdit and a simple regex search with an equation to reduce the location of the key frames to 24fps (80%).
Took less than 30 seconds to fix each file.
The AS files must have a direct path to the images or external files. They can't be inside another folder. If the AS file has to go UP then DOWN to find an external file then it uses an absolute path. The path to an external file must be direct and down. So if your folder has an images folder, the AS files must be at the same level as the images folder.And for the solutions, I'll give them a try... Strangely, if what you say is true, about reconnecting external files, then I'll check where I went wrong, because the folder was copied in its whole...
Did you try the Photoshop script that exports layers to Anime Studio format... those are the ones not reconnecting...
I've not used that script. If it is creating the files in the wrong place or not according to my suggestion it can be modified. The Photoshop script in question is just a simple plain text JS file. Look at the code and maybe you can change how it is linking the images.
This is discussed more thoroughly in another thread on the forum. You could go to the last frame, and copy that frame to frame 1 and delete all the other key frames. this is the menu command for "copy frame". A window pops up to select the channels to copy. You would have to do this for each layer of course.But what I am still trying to achieve is have my new scene (camera and props) start at frame 1, exactly where I left off, lets say on frame 4000... still not sure about that...
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I think my people skills are just fine. Even when annoyed I still try to answer as well as I can. I think that gives me the right to add personal "commentary".I see that people's skill is not your strong points...
Sorry for being harsh, but threatening to "look at" or buying a competing product on THIS forum is pointless. It's childish. It's like a child saying they will hold their breath till the get what they want.
This is the AS forum. I hate seeing a discussion here comparing AS to another program that eventually becomes a "feature comparison war" or a "Why can't AS do this?" discussion. It happens all the time. It could be you didn't "mean it" the way I took it, but I couldn't know that. It is what it is.
You catch more flies with sugar than vinegar.
-vern
I hope everything works out on your production markyyy, I can understand your state of mind while coming to grip with the ins and outs of ANY software package, I know I've had a couple of embarrassing brain farts in my time only to discover I've missed something crucial.
BTW on that topic, if you want to avoid brain farts, don't rush into buying toon boom straight away you might just find yourself on the upgrade train and forced to pay for tech support and without the generous help from the likes of those guys above me here 
who make a sacrifice of their time and effort, not to mention patience.
BTW on that topic, if you want to avoid brain farts, don't rush into buying toon boom straight away
you might just find yourself on the upgrade train and forced to pay for tech support and without the generous help from the likes of those guys above me here who make a sacrifice of their time and effort, not to mention patience.The thing which amazes me most is that somebody is actually producing full HD, 1920 x 1080 at 59.94fps with an animation software less than 200$ ... Marky, I really like to see the final result, could you please provide a link if that's possible?
So we have a 200$ software and an animator "complaining" why it can't do the same stuff as an 5000$-per-seat software package ...
OK, let's get back to reality. I've worked with expensive production systems (Toonz, Animo) as well as with consumer software like AS. In my experience those expensive packages only score in one field: they try to be no-brainers. The big systems are all set up in a way that every participant - animator, inker, compositor - can do things only in the way the system allows, and only are allowed to drop their work on the next table if it's officially approved. The most important part of those systems is just a big file server and a whole bunch of permissions, version controls, and transaction rules.
This has nothing to do with animation or computer power, it's just daily business like any production supervisor would do, transformed into software. If you are a skilled production supervisor you can do without that software easily. You plan ahead, you set up folders and files the right way before you start, you have a file server and backups, and you buy some more licenses for some more machines and get an intern to start the batch renderer every morning ...
So we have a 200$ software and an animator "complaining" why it can't do the same stuff as an 5000$-per-seat software package ...
OK, let's get back to reality. I've worked with expensive production systems (Toonz, Animo) as well as with consumer software like AS. In my experience those expensive packages only score in one field: they try to be no-brainers. The big systems are all set up in a way that every participant - animator, inker, compositor - can do things only in the way the system allows, and only are allowed to drop their work on the next table if it's officially approved. The most important part of those systems is just a big file server and a whole bunch of permissions, version controls, and transaction rules.
This has nothing to do with animation or computer power, it's just daily business like any production supervisor would do, transformed into software. If you are a skilled production supervisor you can do without that software easily. You plan ahead, you set up folders and files the right way before you start, you have a file server and backups, and you buy some more licenses for some more machines and get an intern to start the batch renderer every morning ...
Yeap! that pretty amazing, I have to say... as soon as the first show is release, I'll post a link...The thing which amazes me most is that somebody is actually producing full HD, 1920 x 1080 at 59.94fps with an animation software less than 200$ ... Marky, I really like to see the final result, could you please provide a link if that's possible?
So we have a 200$ software and an animator "complaining" why it can't do the same stuff as an 5000$-per-seat software package ...
People are doing 3D now with open source software.. even cheaper
Well, the price, to me doesn't "necessarly" justifies the quality, but rather how it is sold to you.. When I bought this software (more than a year ago) if I'm not mistaking it was part of a package deal with either poser or Carrara before they were sold off.. I didn't now any other software on the market and when I read stuff like "no other software on the market does this and that bla bla bla" etc etc. And I've seen some of the stuff done with it... To me that was a "PRO" package...
That being said.. I never complained about the software, I was able to do a 24mins show with, BUT in this business, you can't "live or die" with a software, you have to be on top of technology... And my original question (still not answered btw LOL) was if anybody had any inside news on upcoming updates...
doesn't lostmarbles "owns it" when I send a request to support, it was Mike that answered me... I guess he's behind these 2 software for most of it..First off Papagayo is free. It is open source and is NOT part of Anime Studio. It is not supported or owned by Smith Micro.
ok.. I'm lostHowever there is an easy fix. Use a text editor with regex and change the values in the DAT file from whatever it is to whatever you need. I did that recently when one of my files was 30fps and I needed 24fps. I used jEdit and a simple regex search with an equation to reduce the location of the key frames to 24fps (80%).
Took less than 30 seconds to fix each file.
Ah.. well to me that defeats the "wanted to be organized"... everything is in folders... ok. No big deal, then I'll put the AS file inside the folder.The AS files must have a direct path to the images or external files. They can't be inside another folder.
And yes, the script actually puts all the layer images in a folder than creates a .anme file ... I can change that...
Thx, I'll check... but I think it can only be done within the same file..This is discussed more thoroughly in another thread on the forum. You could go to the last frame, and copy that frame to frame 1
It's strange that most of the replies I got was focussed on the last line of my comment, but all the rest was ignore, since as I said before my original question is still unanswered.. Being childish is wanting what you don't need... being responsible is asking question around to see if the tools you have are what you need to get the job done... I'm not talking about not getting my Fisher Price truck herebut threatening to "look at" or buying a competing product on THIS forum is pointless. It's childish.
Gotta make sure the producer, broadcasters and everyone involved are satisfied with the product and my deliveries deadlines are met..MP
for $3000.00, it'll go into more thoughts before I decide to change...chucky wrote:don't rush into buying toon boom straight away
I thought I read a post by Mike saying he was at Siggraph or some convention like that and that he had something to show about upcoming versions.. This is what I'm interested (and surely all of you) to hear about..
MP