I am new to 2D animation. I was reading a book on anime 2D animation last night, and it was saying that the animator has to hand draw ‘all frames’ for each second of the animation (16 drawings per sec). It was discussing the use of onionskin in making these drawings.
I don’t understand. In my 3d program (Lightwave), I only have to, create or setup, the key frames, and Lightwave generates the frames ‘between’ these key frames. I don’t have to setup every frame, or 24 frames per sec.
In a program like Toon Boom or Anime Pro, do you have to draw ‘all frames’, or do you just create the key frames only? I would, of course, prefer to buy a 2D software that only require me to draw the key frames if possible. I don’t understand why any animator would want to draw every frame. That is what computers are for, to take some of the work load off the animator.
Anyway, some of the 2D software that my book listed:
Toon Boom
Celeys Graphic Software
Plastic Paper
Animation Stand
DegCel FlipBook
MonkeyJam
TAB Paperless 2D Animation
TOKI Line Test
Animation Pro
Do any of these let an animator only draw the key frames, or do they require the animator to draw all frames?
I’m sorry if the answer seem obvious to you. I come from a 3D software background and drawing all frames is a new concept to me. I just don’t get it.
Thanks
Kori
Why draw all frames?
Moderators: Víctor Paredes, Belgarath, slowtiger
Most animation software, 2D or 3D, does the "tweens" (inbetween the keys) for you, including Anime Studio. Some software, like ToonBoom, offers the ability to "draw all the frames" as well, because that approach offers the greatest control for an artist.
It isn't "wrong" to draw all the frames, nor is it especially right -- the use of the tools in the best way to end up with the results that you want is the ultimate goal of us all. As with anything in life, there are advantages and disadvantages to doing it either way, and you live with the tradeoffs that most suit your style.
It isn't "wrong" to draw all the frames, nor is it especially right -- the use of the tools in the best way to end up with the results that you want is the ultimate goal of us all. As with anything in life, there are advantages and disadvantages to doing it either way, and you live with the tradeoffs that most suit your style.
It's all a question of how much artistic expression and control you want to have in your animation.
Compare these basic kinemes (movements):
1. a falling pebble
2. a bouncing ball
3. a driving car
4. a running man
5. an actor on stage, reciting Shakespear
1, 2, and 3 are quite simple - so simple they can be described completely with a mathematic formula. The forces involved are known and can easily be quantified. So an animation program only needs to know the start and end position, or even just the start position, and some representation of physics, to be able to calculate all frames in a way that the resulting movement looks convincing.
4 is more difficult, but because the overall movement is so powerful it can be calculated as well. This time it's a matter of length of limbs, weight, and speed. And since it's a repeating movement the animation software can save a lot of work too.
5 is totally different. Each movement, every little gesture, even the blinking of the eyes is determined by the actor's performance. None of that could be pressed into formulas. It's not just a matter of getting a hand from position A to position B. It's about how the movement starts and ends, which arc is described, and so on. Every little detail makes a difference.
To get all those details a traditionally trained animator knows how to draw them and where to put the drawings in time. Usually he will create about 12 drawings per second for ordinary actions, but for speedy movement he will draw up to 24 per second.
All this considered, it's also a question of which animation style you want to work in. Disney animation needs a lot of drawings. Japanese Anime works happily away with only a fraction of it. Series like "Family Guy" are successful even though they reduced the animation to a bare minimum - most of the time a character stands still and only his mouth moves. "South Park" is another example of doing animation with very few frames. You have to decide for yourself which way you want to go.
Compare these basic kinemes (movements):
1. a falling pebble
2. a bouncing ball
3. a driving car
4. a running man
5. an actor on stage, reciting Shakespear
1, 2, and 3 are quite simple - so simple they can be described completely with a mathematic formula. The forces involved are known and can easily be quantified. So an animation program only needs to know the start and end position, or even just the start position, and some representation of physics, to be able to calculate all frames in a way that the resulting movement looks convincing.
4 is more difficult, but because the overall movement is so powerful it can be calculated as well. This time it's a matter of length of limbs, weight, and speed. And since it's a repeating movement the animation software can save a lot of work too.
5 is totally different. Each movement, every little gesture, even the blinking of the eyes is determined by the actor's performance. None of that could be pressed into formulas. It's not just a matter of getting a hand from position A to position B. It's about how the movement starts and ends, which arc is described, and so on. Every little detail makes a difference.
To get all those details a traditionally trained animator knows how to draw them and where to put the drawings in time. Usually he will create about 12 drawings per second for ordinary actions, but for speedy movement he will draw up to 24 per second.
All this considered, it's also a question of which animation style you want to work in. Disney animation needs a lot of drawings. Japanese Anime works happily away with only a fraction of it. Series like "Family Guy" are successful even though they reduced the animation to a bare minimum - most of the time a character stands still and only his mouth moves. "South Park" is another example of doing animation with very few frames. You have to decide for yourself which way you want to go.
Last edited by slowtiger on Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I am lost on the subject of frames per sec. If I remember correctly, 24 fps is used for film and 30 fps is used for video. On a film camera, if you want to speed up the movement of your character, you set your camera to a lower fps setting such as 15 fps. When the projector plays back at 24 fps the character will have that fast jerky silent movie look. On a film camera, if you want to slow down the movement of your character, you set your camera to a higher fps setting such as 60 fps. When the projector plays back at 24 fps the character move in slow-motion.[Usually he will create about 12 drawings per second for ordinary actions, but for speedy movement he will draw up to 24 per second.
All this considered, it's also a question of which animation style you want to work in. Disney animation needs a lot of drawings. Japanese Anime works happily away with only a fraction of it.]
So, when you say that anime can be made using half the drawings of normal Disney animation, what do you exactly mean? If you create about 12 drawings, but the video plays back at 30 fps, where do the other 18 frames come from?
Animation was traditionally done "on 2's", meaning that each drawing was exposed for exactly two frames of film. Thus 12 drawings for each 24 frames of film.
Doing it on 1's was used for extremely fast motion or things that 2's could not be adequate for -- in those cases there would be 24 drawings per second of film.
With computers doing tweens there isn't much of a need to use this terminology, or technique. But if you are drawing all the frames it's important to know (and it's good to know as much as possible about traditional techniques anyway -- no matter what software you use it will make you a better animator).
Doing it on 1's was used for extremely fast motion or things that 2's could not be adequate for -- in those cases there would be 24 drawings per second of film.
With computers doing tweens there isn't much of a need to use this terminology, or technique. But if you are drawing all the frames it's important to know (and it's good to know as much as possible about traditional techniques anyway -- no matter what software you use it will make you a better animator).
You create your 18 frames (or 12, or whatever), then expose some of them more than once.
So, you've got [frames] 1,2,3,4 software or film camera man then converts to something like: 1,1,2,2,3,3,4,4,5,5,6,6 etc. a similar thing happens with the transition from 24 fps film to 30 fps video or 18 FPS to 24 FPS-you just double up some of the frames, and not others.
http://www.zerocut.com/tech/pulldown.html
For 3D software, if you want to add 'life' to the animation, you need to add more keyframes, and distort the images as well. If the whole point is to avoid work, you can do so with much less fuss by not bothering with animation at all.
Try watching an animated video frame by frame.
What is your interest in 2D animation? (there's more software out there than you have listed-each with different strengths and weaknesses).
-dm
So, you've got [frames] 1,2,3,4 software or film camera man then converts to something like: 1,1,2,2,3,3,4,4,5,5,6,6 etc. a similar thing happens with the transition from 24 fps film to 30 fps video or 18 FPS to 24 FPS-you just double up some of the frames, and not others.
http://www.zerocut.com/tech/pulldown.html
For 3D software, if you want to add 'life' to the animation, you need to add more keyframes, and distort the images as well. If the whole point is to avoid work, you can do so with much less fuss by not bothering with animation at all.
Try watching an animated video frame by frame.
What is your interest in 2D animation? (there's more software out there than you have listed-each with different strengths and weaknesses).
-dm
I got hooked on watching anime. I’ve been buying complete seasons of titles like: Blue Gender; Cowboy Bebop; Elfen Lied; Ergo Proxy; Full Metal Alchemist; Gantz; Witch Hunter Robin; Wolf’s Rain, and more.What is your interest in 2D animation?
I’ve modeled with modo and Lightwave, but 2D animation is new to me. I thought I would give it a try. I bought Anime Pro 5 and went through the tutorials, but it does not feel right. I’m still looking at other software, such as Toon Boom Studio; TAB; DigiCel FlipBook; Retas! Pro. I’m not sure just what I want in a 2D software. Just some dedicated package. Perhaps something with integrated x-sheets. I’m not sure if I want bitmap drawing tools or vector. I only know I want to try my hand at about a three minute anime and see how it goes. Since this is just a fun project, I don’t plan to spend more than $500.00 on whatever software I buy.
What about using a cel shader (or toon shading) in Lightwave?
http://forums.cgsociety.org/archive/ind ... 69392.html is a good starting place.
Keep in mind that you can also bring 3D objects into Anime Studio.
Software certainly has a personal preference thing to it.
Your price point pretty much eliminates Retas! Pro. http://www.tvpaint.com/ might make be worth a look (depending on the exchange rate). Seems to go over well with a number of Lightwave users (bitmapped, though).
Flash might go well with you? Since you've got Anime Studio, you may as well keep messing with it for a while longer. It may 'click' for you. Or not. It's workflow annoyed me a lot at first. Now I can tolerate it. I use Anime Studio as well as a number of other pieces of software for animation. Probably the most 'automated' you can get for the price.
-dm
http://forums.cgsociety.org/archive/ind ... 69392.html is a good starting place.
Keep in mind that you can also bring 3D objects into Anime Studio.
Software certainly has a personal preference thing to it.
Your price point pretty much eliminates Retas! Pro. http://www.tvpaint.com/ might make be worth a look (depending on the exchange rate). Seems to go over well with a number of Lightwave users (bitmapped, though).
Flash might go well with you? Since you've got Anime Studio, you may as well keep messing with it for a while longer. It may 'click' for you. Or not. It's workflow annoyed me a lot at first. Now I can tolerate it. I use Anime Studio as well as a number of other pieces of software for animation. Probably the most 'automated' you can get for the price.
-dm
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funksmaname
- Posts: 3174
- Joined: Tue May 29, 2007 11:31 am
- Location: New Zealand
your biggest difference between 2D and 3D space is as that in 2D the world is flat, and nothing 'exists'. In 3D you can model your character and environment, and then keyframe it and move the camera to wherever you want... the 2D process is much more involved in planning just because if you do stuff from the wrong angle, you have to start from scratch - waste of time...
There is no 'automated' way to do 2D... you can rig a character from one point of view to help you move it in that view, but whether he still looks like the same chracter when you make him turn is completely down to your skill, not the software. 2D relies on drawing skill much more than spacial awareness - maybe a little less so with anime studio just because you can get away with far fewer drawings for each poses animated segment - but you've not mentioned you can actually draw (and i mean draw repeatedly, consistently and on-model - not just be able to draw one character from one view), so flash/toonboom probably won't help you much. New version of flash has 'bones' but they will be less developed than AS I guarantee it.
As I get older, I start to become more comfortable with the idea that I can't do EVERYTHING, just cos i saw it on TV and i like it... certain things, anime included, are done by large teams of people. If you really like anime, don't look for a 'cheat' solution or after all your effort the end result will be pap. If you want to get into 2D, get 'Richard Williams The Animators Survival Kit' or similar, read it, draw, its a long but enjoyable process. THERE IS NO HOLY GRAIL!
Sorry for the rant, but I've tried a lot of software and AS is the closest you're ever likely to get to 'cheating' in 2D - but it still requires a lot of work, and for your own good PRE PLANNING (something I'm battling with constantly!)... stick with it, and don't expect the process to be much like your previous 3D experience.
There is no 'automated' way to do 2D... you can rig a character from one point of view to help you move it in that view, but whether he still looks like the same chracter when you make him turn is completely down to your skill, not the software. 2D relies on drawing skill much more than spacial awareness - maybe a little less so with anime studio just because you can get away with far fewer drawings for each poses animated segment - but you've not mentioned you can actually draw (and i mean draw repeatedly, consistently and on-model - not just be able to draw one character from one view), so flash/toonboom probably won't help you much. New version of flash has 'bones' but they will be less developed than AS I guarantee it.
As I get older, I start to become more comfortable with the idea that I can't do EVERYTHING, just cos i saw it on TV and i like it... certain things, anime included, are done by large teams of people. If you really like anime, don't look for a 'cheat' solution or after all your effort the end result will be pap. If you want to get into 2D, get 'Richard Williams The Animators Survival Kit' or similar, read it, draw, its a long but enjoyable process. THERE IS NO HOLY GRAIL!
Sorry for the rant, but I've tried a lot of software and AS is the closest you're ever likely to get to 'cheating' in 2D - but it still requires a lot of work, and for your own good PRE PLANNING (something I'm battling with constantly!)... stick with it, and don't expect the process to be much like your previous 3D experience.
Re: Why draw all frames?
There are 2 ways to make 2D animation on a computer--if you draw a figure-lets say a talking duck-- you can split the character into sections and rig them up like a marionette-- and then you can create walk cycles, etc using rotation, scale of the sections-- then make the whole character move from left to right ( get smaller if you want) and the computer will 'inbetween' the positions created on Keyframes
This is like The FLINTSTONES/South Park/Dexter's Laboratory kind of 'Limited animation' (cut out animation)
FLASH, and Anime Studio would be the kind of software to use
FLASH has recently added kinematics--called 'Bones' in Anime Studio- and AS has better animation controls (but not Flash's Action script)
for FULL animation(like classic Disney) then you 'draw every frame' software like TOONBOOM is geared towards that
There isn't ( as far as I'm aware) that will 'inbetween' literal drawings (scans) replacing what in the classic days would be an assistant who would draw the inbetween frames the ones drawn by the leading animator (then inbetween-these inbetweens might be drawn by a lesser assistant)
although using morphing' techniques it may be possible one day-
Beets
Quote:<<
I am new to 2D animation. I was reading a book on anime 2D animation last night, and it was saying that the animator has to hand draw ‘all frames’ for each second of the animation (16 drawings per sec). It was discussing the use of onionskin in making these drawings.
I don’t understand. In my 3d program (Lightwave),etc...>>
This is like The FLINTSTONES/South Park/Dexter's Laboratory kind of 'Limited animation' (cut out animation)
FLASH, and Anime Studio would be the kind of software to use
FLASH has recently added kinematics--called 'Bones' in Anime Studio- and AS has better animation controls (but not Flash's Action script)
for FULL animation(like classic Disney) then you 'draw every frame' software like TOONBOOM is geared towards that
There isn't ( as far as I'm aware) that will 'inbetween' literal drawings (scans) replacing what in the classic days would be an assistant who would draw the inbetween frames the ones drawn by the leading animator (then inbetween-these inbetweens might be drawn by a lesser assistant)
although using morphing' techniques it may be possible one day-
Beets
Quote:<<
I am new to 2D animation. I was reading a book on anime 2D animation last night, and it was saying that the animator has to hand draw ‘all frames’ for each second of the animation (16 drawings per sec). It was discussing the use of onionskin in making these drawings.
I don’t understand. In my 3d program (Lightwave),etc...>>
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funksmaname
- Posts: 3174
- Joined: Tue May 29, 2007 11:31 am
- Location: New Zealand
I Misspoke when I said Flinstones was 'cutout'
I did mean 'Limited Animation'-- Flintstones would have a cell for the torso and head and separate cells for mouth elements (for example)
So in a single scene with say Fred talking- part of the drawing was 'held'(not moving-using only ONE drawing)while eyes, mouth were being animated on separate cells( like Layers)
FULL animation then his whole body and mouth eyes etc would all be individually drawn for each frame
I was trying originally to do a simple explanation of the full drawn animation vs Limited animation
and by 'cut out' I meant like how a character is broken into symbols in FLASH and that the elements of that character are Motion Tweened (using the rotate Tool to move limbs- as in a walk cycle)
Beets
I did mean 'Limited Animation'-- Flintstones would have a cell for the torso and head and separate cells for mouth elements (for example)
So in a single scene with say Fred talking- part of the drawing was 'held'(not moving-using only ONE drawing)while eyes, mouth were being animated on separate cells( like Layers)
FULL animation then his whole body and mouth eyes etc would all be individually drawn for each frame
I was trying originally to do a simple explanation of the full drawn animation vs Limited animation
and by 'cut out' I meant like how a character is broken into symbols in FLASH and that the elements of that character are Motion Tweened (using the rotate Tool to move limbs- as in a walk cycle)
Beets