New Tool Idea

Moho allows users to write new tools and plugins. Discuss scripting ideas and problems here.

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Phazor
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New Tool Idea

Post by Phazor »

Affinity Designer Has the Node Tool. It's a single tool that can add points, move points, change bezier curves along with the sharpness in-between points all in one tool. Also, you can do all of this without the use of any modifier keys.

Node Tool:
- Double Click adds point
- Drag points to move points
- Drag curve/line between points causes bezier handles to appear and adjusts the handles (You can also adjust handles by grabbing the handles themselves and moving them
- Drag from blank space to select points

No need for 4 or more tools to do this, it can all be done with ONE tool. Also, no modifier keys are necessary (Ctrl, Alt, Shift), just the simple use of your mouse clicks/drags.

Moho Pro has made 4 tools to do the same thing, which is unnecessary.

Add points tool + Curvature Tool + Move Points Tool + Selection Tool = Node Tool...

Can someone make an All-In-One tool so you don't have to keep pressing hotkeys and shortcuts and switching tools back and forth?
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SimplSam
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Re: New Tool Idea

Post by SimplSam »

Moho's node/point tools may need improvement, but I don't think your comparison is quite fair.

For Moho:
+ Transform tool allows proximity selection and manipulation. i.e. You can select/drag the closest point/s without actually clicking directly on it/them - this can speed up editing
+ Transform tool allows whole Curve selection + transform
+ Select tool also has the Lasso feature
+ Moho allows temporary tool changes. Press-hold another Tool key; Do your mouse stuff; Release Tool key and you are back to the original Tool

~ As a Bezier fan, I hardly ever use the Curve tool (might use key shortcuts to force pointed/curved)
~ I hardly ever use the Select tool per se. But I do like the lasso select on the Select tool - and access via temporary tool modifier keys
~ The Add Point tools is equivalent to the affinity Pen tool. You need them to add new point-point paths

- No mid-curve Bezier tool
- No Adding points on existing path with Transform tool
- Poor snapping + no visual guides


For Affinity:
+ The mid-curve Bezier adjustment tool is probably my favourite feature of Designer
+ Excellent Snapping + Visual guides
+ Better range of predefined shapes that remain adjustable shapes unless converted to curves
+ Add point mid-curve with Node tool
+ Has keyless combined add point Bezier (click-drag-move-click) / non-Bezier (click-move-click) Pen tool

~ Move tool is required to select + transform whole Curves
~ Pen tool is required to add new point-point path
~ Grouped items are treated more like whole assets when editing

- No temporary tool switching
- No proximity point/shape transforming
- No Lasso feature
- No scripting engine. So you can't modify or create new tools

out of that ...
I think they both have at least 3 required tools (for my workflow):
Moho: Add (~Pen), Select, Transform (Point/Shape Transform)
Affinity: Pen (~Add), Node (Select + Point Transform), Move (Shape Transform)

In summary - I would like:
* Transform tool: add Mid-curve Bezier adjustment
* Transform tool: alt-Click or Double-click on curve path to add new Point
* Transform tool: allow ctrl+shift Lasso select. (can be achieved now with g + ctrl, but that's not so natural)
* Add tool: add new path without dragging i.e. (Click- free move - Click - free move - Click - weld/esc) rather than (Click & drag - Click & drag - Click & drag - weld/esc)
* and whilst I am at it - Moho needs a different Point Transform tool cursor to distinguish it from the Layer Transform tool
Last edited by SimplSam on Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Maestral
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Re: New Tool Idea

Post by Maestral »

Inkscape has a few nifty additions to Node tool as well...

Adding nodes to the selection
Once you've selected a node, Ctrl+wheel scrolling would add the first node to the left on the same path, then the first one to the right, then again the next one to the left... Scroll up and down adds or subtracts/removes a node from the selection in the reverse order. Without Ctrl, scrolling would just add the next closest node, not necessarily from the same path.
This Ctrl+Scrolling is quite handy when you have a hollow shape (inner and outer path) and you need to select just one of them.

Join nodes on the same path
Select nodes you need to join, hover and hold the mouse over the node you'd prefer to preserve and hit Shift-J. Only the reference node would remain and it would remain at the same position. The path is still slightly deformed afterwards (mostly depends on the selection scope) but by far less than with the usual automatic approximation (just Shift-J, without this reference node hovering) or if you simply delete the selected nodes.
Quite handy after boolean and similar path editing, which usually ends up with some unwanted or not really needed nodes.
Phazor
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Re: New Tool Idea

Post by Phazor »

For Moho:
+ Transform tool allows proximity selection and manipulation. i.e. You can select/drag the closest point/s without actually clicking directly on it/them - this can speed up editing
+ Transform tool allows whole Curve selection + transform
+ Select tool also has the Lasso feature
+ Moho allows temporary tool changes. Press-hold another Tool key; Do your mouse stuff; Release Tool key and you are back to the original Tool
Yes, I understand, and I do like the fact that you can do proximity selections, but I don't like the fact that you have to use the keyboard to keep pressing shortcuts (because I use a Tablet PC and want to use it in tablet mode) to use the right tool for a specific task.

So, for you it may speed up production, but not for me, and not for others who want to use Touch or simply don't want to keep pressing hotkeys...

It's worth making anyway because you can better have control of how you work in Moho, and it's more user friendly for beginners also. Also, I assume it would be fairly easy to make because all of the tools already exist in Moho, you just have to join them into One Single Tool.
Maestral - This Ctrl+Scrolling is quite handy when you have a hollow shape (inner and outer path) and you need to select just one of them.
The best thing to do to make each tool user friendly for both keyboard and tablet use is to avoid modifier keys if possible.

For example, you can achieve the same thing by simply using the middle click button to enter into the "Scrolling mode" and just dragging your left mouse button when a certain tool is selected. No modifiers/keyboard needed.

For example, want to resize the Draw/Freehand tool?
Just tap middle click to enter into "Size Mode". Left Click drag the mouse to resize. Tap middle click when done...

Want to use the color picker with Freehand tool?
Hold middle click and release over specific color. No hotkeys, no modifier keys. Just mouse clicks...
Faster + Easer = Better

All of Moho Pro's tools can be improved with just mouse clicks so that you can either use a keyboard or a stylus in tablet mode without losing efficiency. You wouldn't even have to think about it or memorize any hotkey. You would simply have a secondary function to a tool by using middle mouse click, or middle mouse drag, or both.

The Middle Mouse Click button doesn't really do anything significant in Moho Pro. It's time to make it much more useful.

Also, the Right Mouse Button Pans your view. What if you can Right Click Drag to Pan, and Hold Right Mouse Button for 0.5 Seconds, then drag to orbit view, or double right click to rotate view, then right click again to exit view rotation?
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arglborps
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Re: New Tool Idea

Post by arglborps »

What I love about adding points in Affinity Designer is you can add them without altering the overall shape at all.
I can create a circle. Hit ⌘+return to turn it into an editable shape and add a point and it'll still stay a perfect circle, then I can choose to alter the shape.

In Moho if I add any point, it'll change the shape right there. Then I first have to somehow get it back to the shape it was. This seems one of the most basic things in vector editing: predictability which isn't really there in Moho.
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synthsin75
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Re: New Tool Idea

Post by synthsin75 »

arglborps wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:55 am What I love about adding points in Affinity Designer is you can add them without altering the overall shape at all.
I can create a circle. Hit ⌘+return to turn it into an editable shape and add a point and it'll still stay a perfect circle, then I can choose to alter the shape.

In Moho if I add any point, it'll change the shape right there. Then I first have to somehow get it back to the shape it was. This seems one of the most basic things in vector editing: predictability which isn't really there in Moho.
If you lock the bezier handles, adding points won't warp the shape.
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arglborps
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Re: New Tool Idea

Post by arglborps »

synthsin75 wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:08 am If you lock the bezier handles, adding points won't warp the shape.
There it was, staring right at me all the time waiting for me to use it and make my life easier.
But no, I had to insist not to read the manual, and live a life of despair and overnighters…

Thanks! Another hint that'll make my life easier!
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Greenlaw
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Re: New Tool Idea

Post by Greenlaw »

Actually, Moho will let you do that if you enable Bezier mode and Fixed Bezier handles. This is fine when you need this level of shape editing control.

But you do NOT normally want this when the artwork is meant to be deformed by bones because Bezier points will not deform predictably. Standard Moho points, on the other hand, will deform very predictably inside a rig. Yes, working with standard Moho points may take some extra tweaking but it's well worth it when you need good, smooth deformations in a character. And with practice, Moho points are actually easy and very predictable to work with.

BTW, most of the time, I leave Show Bezier Handles OFF in the Add Points tool. This way, I won't unintentionally activate the handles, which is a real hassle because it's so easy to do when the handles are visible. Another place where this is a problem is when the Curvature tool is active. Thankfully, Synthsin75 created a mod that adds the Show Bezier Handles button to this tool. You can find it here:

http://www.lostmarble.com/forum/viewtop ... on#p178584

If you happen to create a Bezier point by accident, you can switch it back into a regular Moho point by selecting the point and clicking the Smooth or Peak button. (If you want access to these buttons at any time, check out my MQC tool.)

About the only time I use Bezier points in Moho is for drawing fully scaleable (i.e., resolution independent) items that I don't intend to deform with bones. (That said, Victor came up with a neat trick that will allow you predictably deform Bezier points with bones. A quick search in these forum should turn up his thread about the technique.)

Hope this helps.
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synthsin75
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Re: New Tool Idea

Post by synthsin75 »

Greenlaw wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:16 am Actually, Moho will let you do that if you enable Bezier mode and Fixed Bezier handles. This is fine when you need this level of shape editing control.

But you do NOT normally want this when the artwork is meant to be deformed by bones because Bezier points will not deform predictably. Standard Moho points, on the other hand, will deform very predictably inside a rig. Yes, working with standard Moho points may take some extra tweaking but it's well worth it when you need good, smooth deformations in a character. And with practice, Moho points are actually easy and very predictable to work with.
I don't think simply using fixed handles to add points messes with bone deformation, so long as you don't mess with the handles themselves.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Denis.
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synthsin75
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Re: New Tool Idea

Post by synthsin75 »

Phazor wrote: Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:37 am Node Tool:
- Double Click adds point
- Drag points to move points
- Drag curve/line between points causes bezier handles to appear and adjusts the handles (You can also adjust handles by grabbing the handles themselves and moving them
- Drag from blank space to select points
All that is definitely possible, but unless some scripter needs it themselves (or it just catches their interest), you may have to pay to get it done. Personally, I use a drawing tablet with programmable buttons for modifier keys.
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Re: New Tool Idea

Post by Greenlaw »

synthsin75 wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:42 am I don't think simply using fixed handles to add points messes with bone deformation, so long as you don't mess with the handles themselves.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Denis.
I just tried it and, yes, I think you're correct.

But if the artist is adding a Bezier point to the curve, it's probably with the intention of editing it...otherwise, why add the point?

Well, for me anyway, I avoid Bezier in character art. With bones, I think it's just easier to work with Moho points.
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arglborps
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Re: New Tool Idea

Post by arglborps »

Greenlaw wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:16 am And with practice, Moho points are actually easy and very predictable to work with.
Oh I recall back in the day, when I started using Moho at version 2.0 or 2.5 I think it was when the first Mac OS version came out they had these different points that I found rather unintuitive, but I think I might want to revisit them, because I also find Bezier handles and bones can have very unpredictable results.

So with "Moho points" you mean the option in the prefs to use "Legacy curves for new layers", right?
I just checked and enabling Legacy Curves on a layer will still let you use the Bezier handles… Now I'm puzzled.
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synthsin75
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Re: New Tool Idea

Post by synthsin75 »

Greenlaw wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:12 am
synthsin75 wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:42 am I don't think simply using fixed handles to add points messes with bone deformation, so long as you don't mess with the handles themselves.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Denis.
I just tried it and, yes, I think you're correct.

But if the artist is adding a Bezier point to the curve, it's probably with the intention of editing it...otherwise, why add the point?

Well, for me anyway, I avoid Bezier in character art. With bones, I think it's just easier to work with Moho points.
Well, he's just wanting to add points without it deforming the existing curve. But yeah, that's probably the only time I'd use beziers in normal practice too.
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synthsin75
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Re: New Tool Idea

Post by synthsin75 »

arglborps wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:24 am
Greenlaw wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 6:16 am And with practice, Moho points are actually easy and very predictable to work with.
Oh I recall back in the day, when I started using Moho at version 2.0 or 2.5 I think it was when the first Mac OS version came out they had these different points that I found rather unintuitive, but I think I might want to revisit them, because I also find Bezier handles and bones can have very unpredictable results.

So with "Moho points" you mean the option in the prefs to use "Legacy curves for new layers", right?
I just checked and enabling Legacy Curves on a layer will still let you use the Bezier handles… Now I'm puzzled.
He's just talking about the difference between using beziers and not. Legacy Curves are just the old way curvature between points was determined. It's mostly just there for backwards compatibility. Beziers essentially do away with the automated curvature between points (whether new or legacy), which doesn't tend to play nice with bone deformations, but is fine for simply adding points.
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SimplSam
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Re: New Tool Idea

Post by SimplSam »

arglborps wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:24 am I just checked and enabling Legacy Curves on a layer will still let you use the Bezier handles… Now I'm puzzled.
I believe the Legacy Curves option is more related to compatibility with the old internal storage/processing format of curves - prior to version 7.

If you want to experience the wonderful glory of non-Bezier editing, you can run Moho in Debut mode (and disable Beginner mode - in order to display the Curvature tool).
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