Drawing In ASP

[superanimatrix]

Hi guys,

I know i have touched on this subject before but I just dont like drawing in AS at all. I am so use to years of drawing in flash and it has way better tools. Everyone keeps saying that I should learn the tools but I want to use a different program to draw then just animate in in AS. I have mentioned a thousand times that I like GreyKid style because it is more of the look that I get in flash and it is the best I have seen from any AS animation. I dont like my animations to look like they are drawn in crayon (no disrespect). I like my animations to look nice and clean like GreyKids. Yes I know they have all these talented people as a team but I am sure it can be done. There has got to be another program out there to draw in that has tools like flash has. Someone please help. Also I hear that GreyKid uses combustion, what do they use that for? If anyone can help me out with these questions it would make life so much better. Please help asap. Thanks guys!

- London

[slowtiger]

You have to distinguish between line quality and character design. The line quality of GreyKids fine animation can be achieved with lots of different programs as well as traditional tracing on cel. But the character design is much more important, and that is something no software can help you.

I recommend to create your characters on paper first, and only when you're satisfied with their proportions and have several views of them (front, side, back etc), to scan them in and use this image as a template for doing the clean-up and the character rigging in AS. I don't recommend to use Illustrator or Flash for doing this cleanup because what you import from there has to be tweaked or even re-worked a lot. While drawing directly in AS you save that unnecessary work.

I know how you feel because it was the same for me when I started in AS. But now I'm as familiar with AS' drawing tools as I am in FreeHand or Photoshop. For the record: I still don't like Illustrator's tools, and Flash is just a pain in the ass.

[heyvern]

There is no way around it. You will have to learn to use the drawing tools in AS.

It wouldn't matter what other drawing tool you use, the curves would be different and would have to be imported into AS as eps or AI format... and then you would have to clean them up and fix the curves and... etc...etc...

There is just no other shortcut at the moment. You want the same results you would get by drawing directly in AS but using another program... there isn't another program that can do this.

-vern

[superanimatrix]

You have to distinguish between line quality and character design. The line quality of GreyKids fine animation can be achieved with lots of different programs as well as traditional tracing on cel. But the character design is much more important, and that is something no software can help you.

I recommend to create your characters on paper first, and only when you're satisfied with their proportions and have several views of them (front, side, back etc), to scan them in and use this image as a template for doing the clean-up and the character rigging in AS. I don't recommend to use Illustrator or Flash for doing this cleanup because what you import from there has to be tweaked or even re-worked a lot. While drawing directly in AS you save that unnecessary work.

I know how you feel because it was the same for me when I started in AS. But now I'm as familiar with AS' drawing tools as I am in FreeHand or Photoshop. For the record: I still don't like Illustrator's tools, and Flash is just a pain in the ass.

I wish the tools were a little better in AS. I guess I will just have to get use to them. Drawing in flash is super easy for me, drawing faces, clothes, background, etc... So GreyKid uses AS only to draw?

[superanimatrix]

There is no way around it. You will have to learn to use the drawing tools in AS.

It wouldn't matter what other drawing tool you use, the curves would be different and would have to be imported into AS as eps or AI format... and then you would have to clean them up and fix the curves and... etc...etc...

There is just no other shortcut at the moment. You want the same results you would get by drawing directly in AS but using another program... there isn't another program that can do this.

-vern

What do GreyKid use Combustion for? I am just wondering why their animations look so much differnet than any other AS animation.

[heyvern]

I have no idea what Greykid uses Combustion for. I know it has "special effects" that are not available in AS. It is probably used for many things... compositing, effects whatever.

Combustion has nothing to do with drawing the characters in AS.

Here is a link about AutoDesk Combustion

-------

You have to try and understand that whatever "style" you see in Greykid work that appeals to you it is their artistic "flair". It is THEIR style! You can't "buy" a program to achieve that "look". There isn't a filter that will make your animations better.

You seem to have the idea that there is some magical missing ingredient you could buy or download to achieve that. It takes practice and hard work no matter what application you use.

I still have no idea what you mean when you say:

... I like GreyKid style because it is more of the look that I get in flash

I think you associate the "Flash" look to Greykid because you KNOW HOW TO DRAW IN FLASH and you like Greykid's animation style. Flash is just a drawing application. It is a tool like a pencil. AS is just another pencil.

We all have done the same thing. We see amazing work done in an application and think that the application has something to do with the artistic skill. I've seen amazing "paintings" done using jellybeans. I don't like jellybeans... It is the artist not the medium.

I think you are on a fruitless quest. You won't find the solution you seek in a shrink wrapped box or a software download because the solution can only be found in yourself. If you want to be as good as GreyKid productions.... get practicing. There is no software that will do it for you.

-vern

[Patmals]

HI,

I agree with you about the drawing tools. They are not the usual traditional drawing tools you would find in most illustration related applications.


But if you draw layouts and block everything in another application, with timing and then import them on to a bitmap layer and the trace around your dawings, i guess that's the only way you will be satisfied with your 'line work'.

Combustion is a motion graphic / post production tool. adding visual effects and other tweaks.

[superanimatrix]

I have no idea what Greykid uses Combustion for. I know it has "special effects" that are not available in AS. It is probably used for many things... compositing, effects whatever.

Combustion has nothing to do with drawing the characters in AS.

Here is a link about AutoDesk Combustion

-------

You have to try and understand that whatever "style" you see in Greykid work that appeals to you it is their artistic "flair". It is THEIR style! You can't "buy" a program to achieve that "look". There isn't a filter that will make your animations better.

You seem to have the idea that there is some magical missing ingredient you could buy or download to achieve that. It takes practice and hard work no matter what application you use.

I still have no idea what you mean when you say:

... I like GreyKid style because it is more of the look that I get in flash

I think you associate the "Flash" look to Greykid because you KNOW HOW TO DRAW IN FLASH and you like Greykid's animation style. Flash is just a drawing application. It is a tool like a pencil. AS is just another pencil.

We all have done the same thing. We see amazing work done in an application and think that the application has something to do with the artistic skill. I've seen amazing "paintings" done using jellybeans. I don't like jellybeans... It is the artist not the medium.

I think you are on a fruitless quest. You won't find the solution you seek in a shrink wrapped box or a software download because the solution can only be found in yourself. If you want to be as good as GreyKid productions.... get practicing. There is no software that will do it for you.

-vern

Thanks for the link for Combustion. When I say that flash look I mean it just looks smoother and not like it is drawn in crayon like most stuff I have seen on youtube that has used AS. You keep saying that is GreyKids style but it's not, there are plenty of people who animate in flash that has that same look. When I animate in flash it has that GreyKid look. I am not saying I want to draw exactly like them but they tend to have that flash look. I'm sure others on here who have animated in flash for years and has taken Justin Dikes lessons know what I mean. Go to Cartoonsmart.com and you will see what I mean when I say that flash look. You say:

You seem to have the idea that there is some magical missing ingredient you could buy or download to achieve that. It takes practice and hard work no matter what application you use.

I know that. I have been doing flash animations for years, so what I am saying is I want to be able to do the same colorful and beautiful drawings also in ASP. I'm not some kid who just came off the street thinking I can create something brilliant. I have been drawing on paper since I could pick up a pencil and I am also an artist. Like I said go to CartoonSmart.com and you will see what I am talking about!

[superanimatrix]

HI,

I agree with you about the drawing tools. They are not the usual traditional drawing tools you would find in most illustration related applications.


But if you draw layouts and block everything in another application, with timing and then import them on to a bitmap layer and the trace around your dawings, i guess that's the only way you will be satisfied with your 'line work'.

Combustion is a motion graphic / post production tool. adding visual effects and other tweaks.

Thanks for the info Patmals! I will check this out!

[slowtiger]

I want to be able to do the same colorful and beautiful drawings

Well, you have to be clear about what is a "Flash drawing style" for you. It seems that your definition of this would include:

- flat but vibrant colours
- smooth black outlines
- variable line width.

This is just the look of the result, it can be achieved within a variety of programs, or even on paper.

When I say that flash look I mean it just looks smoother and not like it is drawn in crayon like most stuff I have seen on youtube that has used AS

My definition of "crayon look" would include:

- visible paper texture
- irregular line width
- rough and sketchy lines

But AS animation on youtube rarely shows this features, so I assume you meant something completely different. Could it be that you were referring to a "children's drawing ability style"? So you weren't referring to the line quality, but to the quality of shapes, curves, and movements?

Ah, but then you're talking about drawing ability, not about any software.

[heyvern]

When I say that flash look I mean it just looks smoother and not like it is drawn in crayon like most stuff I have seen on youtube that has used AS

I don't recall that "crayon" look either. Are you sure that isn't "compression" artifacts from the video codec? The only way to get that "crayon" brushed edge look is by using brushes in ASP. Most people complain that look is very hard to achieve.

I'm confused, in another thread you commented about the "crayon" or "painted on" effect as being a Flash style you were TRYING to achieve with AS... or did I misunderstand? Is the crayon effect a "rough" stroke effect or is it something else?

What exactly is that "painted on" look?

What examples of Greykid work has the "crayon" look?

The only thing I can imagine which makes no sense at all is that Flash has a "paint brush" tool allowing people to "paint" fills and strokes. And yet the end result is the same... it is vector shapes with fills and strokes.

I still have no idea what this elusive "Flash look" is and what exactly it has to do with Greykid since as far as I know they don't use Flash... although they may use Flash at some point I have no idea. They could be exporting AS to Flash to create "crayon strokes"... who knows.

The "Flash look" for me is... well... Flash was the first and is the standard for animated vector on the internet. It is the ONLY format for animated vector format on the internet.... so anything that looks like "animated vector" on the internet is the "Flash look".

Any application, 3D, 2D, that exports to SWF is going to have... that Flash look. There is nothing else. That is why I'm confused by this. If you convert a Flash animation to a raster format does it "lose" the "Flash look"?

Imagine that there is another plug in that plays vector animation... how much different can it possibly look from Flash? If you have 20 applications that export to Flash format what is the magic Flash element that is added during the conversion?

You are a talented artist but I still think you are searching for something that doesn't exist.

Greykid has no magic software or ability beyond their talent as artists and their skill with software. They use several applications and techniques to achieve their final results. They give away a tiny bit of that process but not all or it or in any specific detail. Maybe they want to keep those techniques to themselves?

They obviously use Combustion for final processing of rendered AS footage. Who knows what kind of stylistic effects they may be applying to the strokes and fills?

-vern

[superanimatrix]

I want to be able to do the same colorful and beautiful drawings

Well, you have to be clear about what is a "Flash drawing style" for you. It seems that your definition of this would include:

- flat but vibrant colours
- smooth black outlines
- variable line width.

This is just the look of the result, it can be achieved within a variety of programs, or even on paper.

When I say that flash look I mean it just looks smoother and not like it is drawn in crayon like most stuff I have seen on youtube that has used AS

My definition of "crayon look" would include:

- visible paper texture
- irregular line width
- rough and sketchy lines

But AS animation on youtube rarely shows this features, so I assume you meant something completely different. Could it be that you were referring to a "children's drawing ability style"? So you weren't referring to the line quality, but to the quality of shapes, curves, and movements?

Ah, but then you're talking about drawing ability, not about any software.

Yes slow tiger that is exactly what I mean. Flat but vibrant colors, smooth black outlines, variable line width. I would rather not draw on paper though. I'm just so use to drawing in a great program like flash even though everyone seems to have a problem drawing in flash. I became great at drawing in flash in a matter of days. When I say crayon look, the head and bodies are block shaped and so are the backgrounds. The colors are dull and boring. Also in flash I can draw a character so fast and backgrounds. maybe if there were more video tutorials in AS it would help alot better. I hate boring text tutorials.

[superanimatrix]

When I say that flash look I mean it just looks smoother and not like it is drawn in crayon like most stuff I have seen on youtube that has used AS

I don't recall that "crayon" look either. Are you sure that isn't "compression" artifacts from the video codec? The only way to get that "crayon" brushed edge look is by using brushes in ASP. Most people complain that look is very hard to achieve.

I'm confused, in another thread you commented about the "crayon" or "painted on" effect as being a Flash style you were TRYING to achieve with AS... or did I misunderstand? Is the crayon effect a "rough" stroke effect or is it something else?

What exactly is that "painted on" look?

What examples of Greykid work has the "crayon" look?

The only thing I can imagine which makes no sense at all is that Flash has a "paint brush" tool allowing people to "paint" fills and strokes. And yet the end result is the same... it is vector shapes with fills and strokes.

I still have no idea what this elusive "Flash look" is and what exactly it has to do with Greykid since as far as I know they don't use Flash... although they may use Flash at some point I have no idea. They could be exporting AS to Flash to create "crayon strokes"... who knows.

The "Flash look" for me is... well... Flash was the first and is the standard for animated vector on the internet. It is the ONLY format for animated vector format on the internet.... so anything that looks like "animated vector" on the internet is the "Flash look".

Any application, 3D, 2D, that exports to SWF is going to have... that Flash look. There is nothing else. That is why I'm confused by this. If you convert a Flash animation to a raster format does it "lose" the "Flash look"?

Imagine that there is another plug in that plays vector animation... how much different can it possibly look from Flash? If you have 20 applications that export to Flash format what is the magic Flash element that is added during the conversion?

You are a talented artist but I still think you are searching for something that doesn't exist.

Greykid has no magic software or ability beyond their talent as artists and their skill with software. They use several applications and techniques to achieve their final results. They give away a tiny bit of that process but not all or it or in any specific detail. Maybe they want to keep those techniques to themselves?

They obviously use Combustion for final processing of rendered AS footage. Who knows what kind of stylistic effects they may be applying to the strokes and fills?

-vern

What I said or ment was I dont want the crayon look. GreyKid does not have that crayon look. If they want to keep it a secret that is up to them but that would be very selfish of them, There's more than enough for every animator. They should not be in fear of telling others what they use, that is why we are put on this earth is to help others acheive greatness also. Justin Dike at CartoonSmart could have kept his a secret too but he shares it with the world. Maybe what I mean when I say flash look is nice perfect black lines, perfect facial features, inside the trailer in gone in 60 seconds was perfect and everything seem to have a nice glow. I can get that same glow in flash. Did you go to www.cartoonsmart.com and take a look around at Justins work? That is what I mean by flash look. I have not seen anything with that perfect cool look except for GreyKids. I'm not trying to be on GreyKids nutts but I want those nice lines, perfect eyes, mouth, hair, backgrounds. Also at the beginning of Gone in 60 seconds I wonder what they used for the outside of the trailer and the road? I would love to see someone else achieve something so brilliant in AS as they have done!

[superanimatrix]

See how this picutre below has that warm glow to it? The lines are perfect, clothes, everything looks great just like GreyKids. This is what I want to be able to achive in AS. This pic is from Flash:

[heyvern]

See how this picutre below has that warm glow to it? The lines are perfect, clothes, everything looks great just like GreyKids. This is what I want to be able to achive in AS. This pic is from Flash:

Uh... hmm...

You can get that exact look in AS. Maybe the gradients would be tricky but not impossible.

"vibrant colors" are just... picking the right colors. The same colors available in Flash are available in AS. Any color you use in Flash can be used in AS... there are no color limitations.

The clean variable stroke widths can also be achieved in AS.

This is why I have been confused by your questions and search for that "Flash look"... it isn't a software specific "look" at all it is a stylistic choice that can be achieved in any application.

This was done entirely in AS:
(Please note! I'm not calling you a screw ball! I did this ages ago! )



I did this purely as an illustration for a poster and I drew the characters from scratch in AS using scanned in rough pencil sketches as reference:



AS is capable of more than you realize. As you get more skilled with the tools you will find that many things are achievable. It does take some time and effort to learn the drawing tools. They aren't the same as Flash.


-vern