New user getting to par

slowtiger · Post by **slowtiger** » Sat Aug 16, 2008 12:57 pm

I learnt 2D vector animation ages ago with Animo (http://www.animo.com/). Back then, in 1993 I think, I was one of the beta testers and spent 3 weeks in Cambridge at their place. I was totally amazed by what this software was able of! Like adding a timeline to Freehand, but even more: the ability to change the outline colour at any vector point, even put multi-node gradients in there!

My studio ordered a copy, of course, and the high-prize specialized PC for it. It only ran on NextStep, the rendering took ages, and the final output required an Abekas, a harddrive specialised for realtime video output. The price tag was 5 digits - in £. As far as I understand they skipped the vector animation part completely, or sell it as a separate FX module.

Years later they had a Mac OSX port, but the price tag was still 26.000 € for one seat. Not affordable. The last version I checked was somewhat about 5.000 €, but that didn't include every module I needed.

Then came along AS, still called Moho that time. For just 81 € I got a program which was like a basic version of my dream software. It was affordable and it worked. It covered most of my needs, and what it left out was mostly ballast I didn't need as an independent animator. Since I was a classically trained animator I was able to get my stuff organised myself. My experience with hundreds of other programs helped a lot, of course. I still had to work it all out, get used to the interface which is very different from what I was used to, and ask many a question in this forum.

If I were to write a wish list for future releases, I'd only add a few points:
deep import and maybe something like the "symbol" trick in Flash,
the ability to select stuff in the main window instead of scrolling through the layer palette,
a more flexible way to deal with file dependancies (imported bitmaps and stuff),
a better management of colours and styles.
This is all stuff which is helpful for bigger production, it doesn't do much for the average user.

mkelley · Post by **mkelley** » Sat Aug 16, 2008 1:28 pm

markyyy wrote:What settings in the rendering did you use? Antialiasing, Shape effects and layer effects...

When I took those off + rendered at half the size, it took about 2 hours for the whole show...

I have about 10 scenes, with sub scenes (b-roll)... I think my best bet will be to separate my scenes to the other computers...

I have all three of those checked, Mark, but I don't use any shape or layer effects as a general rule, and certainly no shadows (if I needed things like that I'd do it in post with After Effects -- have used AE for many things in Post like this).

But I'm strictly a PC guy, so I have no idea how to compare to your Mac -- quad Pentiums with 4GB of RAM (all standard nowadays on even the sub $700 desktop PCs -- you can put together a real nice render farm for only a few thousand, although ours cost considerably more since it was bought several years ago).

As to your question about Papagayo -- while Mike wrote it he put the source in public domain and I think has pretty much stopped any development on it for that reason. Others have issued versions, but I wouldn't think it is going anywhere. And, truth be told, it really doesn't need to -- it does almost exactly what it needs to do. As ST mentioned, the file produced is a text file simply showing the frame numbers where events need to take place. So if you can't get it to do 60FPS just use 30FPS and dump the resultant file into a spreadsheet program (it loads very nicely into Excel) and use a formula to double all the frame times. Save out again as a text file and you're good to go.

Also, the whole "copy your last frame to frame 0" is like this -- save your first file as a different name and then do the "copy all to frame 0" and delete all the animation in the file and you're good to go. We do this all the time and it works great except... if you end up changing your first file you have to remember to make the same changes to your next file (what I do in that case is render out a bitmap and load it in as a background to match changes).

Finally -- development on AS is still proceeding, I do believe. But based on what I've seen on the cycles here (and based on Smith-Micro's positioning) I would be falling down dead surprised if we see a major upgrade of AS (which would be required for net rendering) anytime in the next year or two. I could be wrong (I hope I'm wrong -- new software is always exciting), but I've been in the industry since there WAS an industry (30 years) and can count on one hand the number of times I've misread things like this.

markyyy · Post by **markyyy** » Sat Aug 16, 2008 1:53 pm

mkelley wrote: I have all three of those checked, Mark, but I don't use any shape or layer effects as a general rule, and certainly no shadows (if I needed things like that I'd do it in post with After Effects -- have used AE for many things in Post like this).

Intertesting.. That could be another way to look at the work flow..

As to your question about Papagayo -- while Mike wrote it he put the source in public domain and I think has pretty much stopped any development on it for that reason. Others have issued versions, but I wouldn't think it is going anywhere. And, truth be told, it really doesn't need to -- it does almost exactly what it needs to do. As ST mentioned, the file produced is a text file simply showing the frame numbers where events need to take place. So if you can't get it to do 60FPS just use 30FPS and dump the resultant file into a spreadsheet program (it loads very nicely into Excel) and use a formula to double all the frame times. Save out again as a text file and you're good to go.

Ah.. now I get it.. ok looks pretty simple..

Also, the whole "copy your last frame to frame 0" is like this -- save your first file as a different name and then do the "copy all to frame 0" and delete all the animation in the file and you're good to go.

That'll do it.. thx.

Finally -- development on AS is still proceeding, I do believe. But based on what I've seen on the cycles here (and based on Smith-Micro's positioning) I would be falling down dead surprised if we see a major upgrade of AS (which would be required for net rendering) anytime in the next year or two.

.

Thx for the info... Since I'm new at this, seeking info from guys with experience greatly helps the learning process.. That's exactly what I wanted to know.

Plus those of you who have been doing this for years, have gone through other softwares, era etc. and seeing that you're able to do pretty much what you want with this software is reassuring... Then it's just a matter of checking my workflow and planning...

OK... back to AS... got a show to deliver

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heyvern · Post by **heyvern** » Sun Aug 17, 2008 12:13 am

as I said before my original question is still unanswered.

Many software companies do not like to publicly discuss upcoming versions because they can't always guarantee that it will be delivered on that date. Or if they promise certain features and can't deliver them expectations aren't met. It is an unspoken rule for many companies not to talk about upcoming features before they are ready. Almost all of us on this forum are just users of AS. We have no connection to Smith Micro.

It could be that anyone with knowledge of a "new version" is bound by a legal agreement not to discuss it... just guessing. New versions of a program like AS take time. I would prefer they do it right then to rush it.

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Being childish is wanting what you don't need... being responsible is asking question around to see if the tools you have are what you need to get the job done.

Being childish has many levels. Making a threat you don't really plan to follow through on is what I considered childish. Over the years I've encountered many many people who said exactly what you said; "I'll buy program X if this program doesn't get these features." It's "tone" can have many levels but its meaning is the same; "Do what I want or else."

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I approach limitations to software from a different mindset. If a program I have purchased and like using has a problem, I am THRILLED when I find a workaround rather than upset it doesn't work exactly the same as program X.

There have been many times that someone here needed a new feature and a member of this forum wrote a new button or tool or layer script to do it. I don't know of any other program that has that feature. Those new features would NEVER happen if the developers had to add those features. Many people here don't use the standard tools that come with AS. We use custom tools developed by other users.

I'm not talking about not getting my Fisher Price truck here. Gotta make sure the producer, broadcasters and everyone involved are satisfied with the product and my deliveries deadlines are met.

Of course. Those requirements are YOUR responsibility not the creators of AS. It's the old adage "Don't blame the tools". Ask us how to do something or how to solve a problem. There is always more than one way to skin a cat.

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This forum is not only a priceless resource for learning and using AS it is ALSO a marketing tool to PROMOTE Anime Studio and is owned by the developer. If you want to discuss feature comparisons between AS and another application use the "Other Software" forum. Go to a general forum for animation.

That was my original beef when you mentioned buying some other program.

-vern

Genete · Post by **Genete** » Sun Aug 17, 2008 12:37 am

Mmmm ...This thread is getting a loud tone in the conversation... hey guys, take it easy! AS is a great animation program and THIS forum is its best value...

@vern: don't remember read you so upset from long time ago... calm brother

@markyyy: vern is a good boy, don't misinterpret him

peace

heyvern · Post by **heyvern** » Sun Aug 17, 2008 4:28 am

I am a good person REALLY! I have people skills I swear! I love people. I want everyone to LIKE ME! Please LIKE ME! I have low self esteem and am easily provoked when my generally kind and helpful nature is impugned.

We are all entitled to a bit of "Internet Rage" once in awhile? I apologize for going on about it.

Just trying to explain as best I can what bothered me. I still feel that the concept of buying something else is an idle threat. To be totally honest I HAVE DONE THE SAME THING MYSELF!

Yes it is true. In my youth I would get angry with a programs limitations and threaten to buy something else... when in reality I had no intentions of doing so. It only happened with programs that I truly LOVED to use but was frustrated my the limits.

As I matured I realized how silly it was to do that. It never ever worked and it just ticked people off. I found the BEST WAY to get help on ANY forum is to be sweet as sugar and and humble as pie... or... whatever that means.

-vern

markyyy · Post by **markyyy** » Sun Aug 17, 2008 5:04 am

heyvern wrote: Please LIKE ME! I have low self esteem and am easily provoked when my generally kind and helpful nature is impugned.

OK.. I like you I do...

You seem very passionate about the software and the subject, that's cool... Hey.. I've read you on other posts... When I saw you were my first response... I knew I was in for a ride

... Everyone likes to protect their territory, I can understand some people are more protective than others... That being said, I LOVE AS Pro, and I've been a strong supporter of it, Even sold it to the producer when he was convinced that Toon boom was THE software. He likes the product, so that's what counts... that's why my post was called "getting to par with AS", I wanted to get quickly up to date with AS, And reading between the lines, I see that the most experience animators found workarounds for most of the "problems" that can arise... Of course I can not pretend to have the same knowledge or experience as 10yrs + experienced animators have..

Also the 1st post I read about updates is dated from early 2007 by fahim, and it seems he has left the company... Just want to make sure the software is not dying. Usually major updates come up every year or so..

Anyways,
I got my answer, I'm happy with it... next posts will be on how to's...

see y'a

MP

slowtiger · Post by **slowtiger** » Sun Aug 17, 2008 10:38 am

vern:

Many people here don't use the standard tools that come with AS. We use custom tools developed by other users.

I'm different. I use nearly every program out of the box and just live with limitations. The time I would need to search and install a hack I could spend better. I'm also used to switch programs often. A workflow is like an assembly line, and every program is just another machine, all with different toolsets and abilities. I know how the result should look like, and then I take my hammer and start working.

(My girlfriend knows how impatient I am when I reach for the hammer and it is not in the toolbox.)

That said, I really appreciate the work of vern and others who seem to spend a big part of their life tuning software like others tune cars. If this world were run by somebody with a brain, they would get a job at a studio like Pixar and code custom-made tools for a decent salary.

DarthFurby · Post by **DarthFurby** » Sun Aug 17, 2008 1:23 pm

A few months before the SmithMicro acquisition, I spoke with Fahim and Mark, at the time e-frontier's VP of Marketing and Fahim's boss, at a local convention here in New York(where I also got to meet Vern, who really is a good person, but sometimes a bit overprotective of his favorite software), and asked Mark point blank:

"Do you have any other developers working on Anime Studio?"
"No."
"Why don't you hire more programmers?"
"Well...we have Mike."

In other words, they had no intention of hiring more software engineers, especially since they only had a license, not the rights to the software, while Anime Studio's long term value to the company remained a question mark(just like SmithMicro, I think.) However, they were in the middle of a successful product launch and had reason for optimism. I'm mostly paraphrasing here:

"Would you be interested in buying the rights to Anime Studio?"
"Yes, we're in talks with Mike about this, he is very receptive to the idea. In fact we're trying to hire him from Adobe."

I was somewhat shocked how candid and open the marketing department turned out to be(or maybe it's because I used to work as a reporter for my college newspaper and used all my jedi mind tricks), but they unintentionally gave me a very clear picture about e-frontier, and Mike's own convictions. Whether e-frontier was the right company for Anime Studio is very debatable, but as far as Mike is concerned I have no doubts: He is extremely passionate about his creation, and as long as he is behind the product, you can be sure that updates will come sooner or later, regardless of who holds the license, be it a company like e-frontier or SmithMicro. That's why I'm extremely relieved that Mike owns the rights(as far as I'm aware), and hope the right company finds Anime Studio some day.

DarthFurby · Post by **DarthFurby** » Sun Aug 17, 2008 1:37 pm

Also, 300 posts! Yaaay!!!

markyyy · Post by **markyyy** » Sun Aug 17, 2008 1:52 pm

That's what I call an update !!!

thanks for the info...

MP